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Do you still use Mademoiselle? | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| Javi Senior Member Spain Joined 5981 days ago 419 posts - 548 votes  Speaks: Spanish* | Message 17 of 23 04 April 2010 at 11:03pm | IP Logged | |||||
Well, maybe sexism is a bit of a strong word in this context, but the fact is that I looked it up in two different dictionaries before posting (just in case it had a different nuance from the one I'm used in Spanish), and I saw nothing about intentionality. Anyway, you're right, whether an individual speaker uses the word or not depends mostly upon the social customs of their country or region, and so I don't really think that anyone would get offended. Where I live, I guess that if you use a line the like of ¿señora o señorita?, she will answer politely as soon as she stops laughing, but no offence taken. Edited by Javi on 05 April 2010 at 1:08pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| victor-osorio Diglot Groupie Venezuela Joined 5432 days ago 73 posts - 129 votes Speaks: Spanish*, English Studies: Italian | Message 18 of 23 05 April 2010 at 2:56am | IP Logged | |||||
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I would like to say that in Venezuela, in the houses of the rich, the domestic staff
refers to the young men as the "señoritos". It may not be common in the Spanish- speaking world, but the word is used at least in that particular context. The thing is that I think "señorita" (cannot speak about madmoiselle) doesn't have nothing to do with the fact that a woman is married or not but with the fact that the women has children or not. The word is probably linked with the Middle Age obsession with the virginity of women. In other words, a "señorita" is a woman who hasn't had sexual relationships... so certainly, a woman who has given birth a child is not a "señorita". That's why I think "señorito" doesn't exist in most Spanish speaking countries (and an equivalent in French speaking countries). Nowadays, I don't think the word is used so single men can know whether a woman is available or not (the fact that is married or not has nothing to do with being available or not). I think is a respectful way to refer to a woman, letting her know that you think she is young. I don't use it but I like to know that my language has a word with the specific meaning of "young women who I respect". 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| victor-osorio Diglot Groupie Venezuela Joined 5432 days ago 73 posts - 129 votes Speaks: Spanish*, English Studies: Italian | Message 19 of 23 05 April 2010 at 2:58am | IP Logged | |||||
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As always, I checked the RAE dictionary (probably the most important authority when it
comes to Spanish vocabulary). The word 'señorito" is recognized by the Academy: http://buscon.rae.es/draeI/SrvltConsulta?TIPO_BUS=3&LEMA=se% F1orita Also find this: the word for "single woman" in french is demoiselle, not mademoiselle. (I cannot say if this is true, but that is the result the wordreference dictionary retrieved when I wanted to translate "señorita") Mademoiselle has more to do with a treatment form, used for the daughters of powerful men. Maybe nowadays is used only to be more respectful with women (which doesn't explain why the form someone mentioned gave Mlle as an option). I can relate "demoiselle" ethymologically with "doncella" (from the latin domnicĕlla), which in Spanish means "a young woman who hasn't had sexual relationships". Mademoiselle would mean, then, ma + demoiselle, one particular "doncella" or "maiden". Which supports my definition of "señorita" and "mademoiselle" more as a woman who doesn't have children rather than simply a single woman. Edited by victor-osorio on 05 April 2010 at 3:15am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Kisfroccs Bilingual Pentaglot Senior Member Switzerland Joined 5409 days ago 388 posts - 549 votes Speaks: French*, German*, EnglishC1, Swiss-German, Hungarian Studies: Italian, Serbo-Croatian | Message 20 of 23 13 April 2010 at 6:56pm | IP Logged | |||||
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I live in the french part of Switzerland, and in formal letter, you have to write now Madame XY. I understand that some women may be offended being called "mademoiselle", but I rather say, it hasn't such a strong meaning here. If I were younger, being called madame would have been extremely strange to me, for me "mademoiselle" was always associated with "jeune fille". It was always clear for me, that it defined the status of the women too (married, unmarried), but it had his importance only on official paper.
If some man would call me "mademoiselle" (even if he don't know if i'm married or unmarried), I take it as politeness (politesse?). I'm not married, so I can't say I would be offended being called mademoiselle in place of madame, but I am unhappy being called madame, because I'm young. So, I think, mademoiselle / madame, in the street and conversation, its just a matter of age of the person. It would be really strange and offending calling a middle aged woman "mademoiselle"... On the other hand, my mother was called once "mademoiselle" and she was flatted (flattée), because the speaker thought she was younger than she really was... In Switzerland, you have to adress now all the women with "madame", and personnally, I find it very strange, because, nobody even thought about this words being sexist. But nowadays, there are a lot of words who have been changed (doctor -> doctoresse, cantonier -> techniciens de la route (ou quelque chose comme ça)), just to be "political correct". Regards, Kisfröccs 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| starst Triglot Senior Member China Joined 5514 days ago 113 posts - 133 votes Speaks: Mandarin*, Japanese, EnglishC2 Studies: FrenchC1, German, Norwegian | Message 21 of 23 14 April 2010 at 3:26am | IP Logged | |||||
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As I'm still quite young (in my 20s), people address me with mademoiselle quite often. And I don't feel anything strange with that. For example, in the french class, the teacher calls me Mlle XX without ever knowing I'm married or not. In fact, it will feel quite strange if she calls me Mme XX.
In the case of journal subscription etc, I'm glad that I can use Dr to eliminate gender differential ;) 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| mrhenrik Triglot Moderator Norway Joined 6079 days ago 482 posts - 658 votes Speaks: Norwegian*, English, French Personal Language Map | Message 22 of 23 14 April 2010 at 3:34am | IP Logged | |||||
I'm not very familiar with French word construction yet, but I'm presuming mademoiselle would then be made up of "ma" (my) and "demoiselle" (single woman) - lit. "my single woman". Similarly, I guess "madame" would mean "my lady", and "monsieur" would somehow fit into it as well. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Whisky Triglot Groupie Germany Joined 5945 days ago 63 posts - 64 votes Speaks: German, French*, English Studies: Japanese | Message 23 of 23 14 April 2010 at 3:03pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Mademoiselle is most definitely used in polite language. French is not that strongly coloured by political correctness yet as to imply the term is intrinsically "sexist". What is wrong with calling people by an attribute that qualifies them accurately if the undertone is not meant to be condescending ? Terms like "mon grand", "jeune homme" etc. are no different...
FYI : "mademoiselle" is usually not perceived negatively, unless used to stress the addressee's position of (perceived) weakness, e.g. - due to too young age (in which case it sounds like "young lady") or - due to old age and combined with unsuccessful attempts to marry (sounds like "ugly old bat" or some such). Mind you, I know of elderly "mademoiselles" (60, 70+) who wouldn't be called anything else, being rather happy with the condition. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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