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Krashen and LingQ | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Language Programs, Books & Tapes |  | |
| Zhuangzi Nonaglot Language Program Publisher Senior Member Canada lingq.com Joined 7027 days ago 646 posts - 688 votes  Speaks: English*, French, Japanese, Swedish, Mandarin, Cantonese, German, Italian, Spanish Studies: Russian | Message 17 of 60 30 December 2007 at 12:04pm | IP Logged | |||||
In the old days I would always avoid using a conventional dictionary because it was so time consuming and because I quickly forgot whatever I looked up. Therefore I would either read material with few unknown words and just let the unknown words go. This was easier to do when reading throw away material like newspapers and magazines. It was a little more annoying in books, when the same words seem to come back. Mostly, when learning, I would look for material with word lists per chapter. This enabled me to easily look up words, and then to review them after reading. The problem was the limited choice of content that had word lists, i.e. language readers. I think the computer has made this all much easier. Making sure that you have audio files for any content that you are going to invest time in reading, also helps a great deal, and ensures a better return on the time invested in deliberately learning words in a text. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| frenkeld Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 6942 days ago 2042 posts - 2719 votes Speaks: Russian*, English Studies: German | Message 18 of 60 30 December 2007 at 12:04pm | IP Logged | |||||
I wouldn't call it splitting hairs - these are two rather different reading modes, especially for those who like reading paper books. I happen to enjoy extensive reading a lot, since it allows me to read a hard-copy book without flipping through a paper dictionary or sitting at the computer typing the words into an electronic one. The main fear is that while it does seem to allow at least for a gradual progress, this approach could be relatively ineffective, so it would be interesting to know what results one may expect from extensive reading alone. P.S. Looks like our posts crossed. I guess I won't delete this one anyway. Edited by frenkeld on 30 December 2007 at 12:14pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| frenkeld Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 6942 days ago 2042 posts - 2719 votes Speaks: Russian*, English Studies: German | Message 19 of 60 30 December 2007 at 12:13pm | IP Logged | |||||
I always make sure to drop whatever $$ it takes to get good bilingual and monolingual electronic dictionaries when these are available, but I also find that reading with an ergonomic enough paper dictionary allows for quick enough lookups to make reading palatable. I do seem to migrate to paper books sooner or later - reading a novel-length work on-screen gets on my nerves after a while, and I look up the words either in an ergonomic paper dictionary or in an exhaustive electronic one simply by typing the words in. Nothing beats extensive reading for convenience though, so it would be interesting to know just how far it can take you. (I share your distaste for annotated readers, so I am talking about unabridged materials for the natives here.) 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Zhuangzi Nonaglot Language Program Publisher Senior Member Canada lingq.com Joined 7027 days ago 646 posts - 688 votes Speaks: English*, French, Japanese, Swedish, Mandarin, Cantonese, German, Italian, Spanish Studies: Russian | Message 20 of 60 30 December 2007 at 12:24pm | IP Logged | |||||
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I agree about migrating to paper. The computer is just a means to get to independence, independence from the computer or a dictionary. I find that I end up bouncing back and forth from book to computer in my reading. Most of my time is spent listening while doing other chores. Audio books, even in languages that I speak well, are a great experience.
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| Art07 Groupie Russian Federation Joined 6213 days ago 61 posts - 64 votes Speaks: Russian* | Message 21 of 60 30 December 2007 at 1:05pm | IP Logged | |||||
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1. Extensive and intesive reading are two diffrend kinds of reading. And if someone is mentioning Krashen and extensive reading, it is worth to notice that and keep the two reading approaches separetly. Otherwise, it show incompetence.
I like this article on the matter: http://www.cc.kyoto-su.ac.jp/~trobb/sussrobb.html "Our working definition of "extensive reading" as a language teaching/learning procedure is that it is reading (a) of large quantities of material or long texts; (b) for global or general understanding; (c) with the intention of obtaining pleasure from the text. [...] Large quantities are essential for this procedure to be 'extensive,' [...] checking dictionary use: too much necessary use shows that the book is too difficult. Too much unnecessary use shows that the student's approach is not appropriate for global reading." In my experience, in practice, Krahsen's "n+1" means about 2% of unknown words; minimum use of the dictionary; the meansing of unknown 2% of unknown words are obtaind from the context (it is one of the point of extensive reading); reading huge amount of texts, for instance, full book with almost no dictionary use and reading of the whole book is done in a short span of time. What Zhuangzi claims is just intensive reading with tools to faciliate the process. It has nothing to do with extensive reading. 2. About the advertising of LingQ. Zhuangzi's post is an advertising because of the use the post is made. To make it neutral, it should be in the way of "is intesive reading + instant dictionaries + other electronic stuff = extensive reading? does computers and tailored electronic systems for a language learner make intensive reading to be extensive reading how it was percieved in the previous century?". The unnecessary mentioning of LingQ makes the initial post a covert advertising. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| frenkeld Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 6942 days ago 2042 posts - 2719 votes Speaks: Russian*, English Studies: German | Message 22 of 60 30 December 2007 at 1:07pm | IP Logged | |||||
Clearly, something has to give - one can't just open the classics and start reading them without a dictionary. Given Krashen's name in the title of the thread, I just wanted to know what "gave" in his own approach.
Well, my confusion stems from the fact that Krashen's approach is called "comprehensible input", not "intensive reading" or "extensive reading". It does appear that extensive reading would be closer in general spirit to what one hears from the comprehensible input advocates, but it is not clear what the precise relationship between the two types of reading and the comprehensible input approach is - at least on the surface, both types of reading supply comprehensible input. Edited by frenkeld on 30 December 2007 at 1:17pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| kewms Senior Member United States Joined 6186 days ago 160 posts - 159 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Japanese | Message 23 of 60 30 December 2007 at 1:14pm | IP Logged | |||||
Ask and you shall receive.... In the LingQ forums and here, you freely admit that your Asian language support needs work. I would call it pitiful, based on limited experience. However, you do not mention this fact anywhere in the main site. Not in the Japanese learning section, and not in any of the signup screens. Do you really think it's wise to charge users full price for functionality that, by your own admission, does not work? Without warning them that you are doing so? While you do offer free memberships, remember that time is valuable, too. Had I known the state of the Japanese support, I wouldn't have wasted the morning I spent discovering its limits for myself. As it is, I am annoyed that an alpha-level tool was not marked as such, and disinclined to waste any more time looking for potential improvements. Katherine 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Zhuangzi Nonaglot Language Program Publisher Senior Member Canada lingq.com Joined 7027 days ago 646 posts - 688 votes Speaks: English*, French, Japanese, Swedish, Mandarin, Cantonese, German, Italian, Spanish Studies: Russian | Message 24 of 60 30 December 2007 at 1:36pm | IP Logged | |||||
Oh come on, get off your high horse. LingQ offers all of its basic functionality free of charge. There are nine languages available. The Japanese section has over 200 items with audio available for download. Most of this content has been contributed by our members, either podcasts that they use (if they are learners) or blogs and diaries if they are Japanese speaking members learning other languages. You can listen. You can read. You can look up words and save the words to a database. You can use Flash Card and review these words. While all of this is free of charge, there are, nevertheless, some people who pay to have a Japanese tutor, so somehow they were not turned off by the short-comings of the Japanese section. Admittedly we lack explanation and some people do not understand how to use the site.WE are working on this and on simplifying the site. Many people, when they have questions, post these in English or in the language of their choice onto a Forum. There they are usually politely answered by tutors or members fairly quickly. It should not take a morning to figure out if the site is for you. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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