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 Language Learning Forum : Language Programs, Books & Tapes |  | |
| kewms Senior Member United States Joined 6186 days ago 160 posts - 159 votes  Speaks: English* Studies: Japanese | Message 41 of 60 03 January 2008 at 8:46pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
I was in the process of responding to this when the forum went down... In my experience, *some* grammar is essential before you can really even start collecting examples. Maybe you could do without in a language similar to your own, but trying to read Japanese without knowing that the verb comes last or what a particle is sounds like a recipe for disaster. (Figuring out the kanji is bad enough...) And, for me, taking the time to go a little beyond that and review the various verb forms was enormously helpful. I agree that getting grammar from textbooks is a terrible idea, though. They move way too slowly for someone who wants to start reading as early as possible. For example Genki, supposedly one of the better Japanese texts, doesn't introduce the past tense until Chapter 4, leaves out plain forms until Chapter 8 (and plain past until Chapter 9), and oversimplifies conjugation so throughly as to be misleading. Gaak! I suspect textbooks for other languages are just as bad. Reference books are your friend. Katherine 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Zhuangzi Nonaglot Language Program Publisher Senior Member Canada lingq.com Joined 7027 days ago 646 posts - 688 votes Speaks: English*, French, Japanese, Swedish, Mandarin, Cantonese, German, Italian, Spanish Studies: Russian | Message 42 of 60 03 January 2008 at 10:42pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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I pay no attention to when different grammatical forms are introduced. Thishas been true of my language learning in the past and is certain;y true of Russian. I just get used to the language through exposure. Explanations are not helpful because they are difficult to apply and remember.
The past tense in Japanese is straight forward and could be introduced at any time. The same is true in Russian. There is a whole range of other issues that one just has to get used to with enough exposure.At least that is my experience. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| ChristopherB Triglot Senior Member New Zealand Joined 6315 days ago 851 posts - 1074 votes 2 sounds Speaks: English*, German, French | Message 43 of 60 04 January 2008 at 5:21am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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I must admit, in my current "flirting" with Icelandic over the past week or so, I just don't know if I can be bothered memorising all the declensions for it. There are all the irregular verb conjugations and tenses to learn as well as which verbs are actually irregular...something I'm damn glad I have sorted in German. The problem is, it just saps away motivation and truth be told I'm more inclined to actually seriously follow Steve's approach as he did for Russian and just focus on the meaning. If I think about it, I never really systematically studied them for German, but rather just acquired them over time through reading and writing on forums and all the work in class etc.
Grammar makes a good reference, but I find exclusive input in the early stage is not only more effective, but all the more enjoyable. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| kewms Senior Member United States Joined 6186 days ago 160 posts - 159 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Japanese | Message 44 of 60 04 January 2008 at 11:38am | IP Logged | ||||||||
Who said anything about memorizing declensions? I'm just saying that at least knowing what the declensions *are* can make reading a whole lot easier and more enjoyable. The difference between imperative, passive, and conditional verbs can have quite an impact on the meaning of the sentence. (Loading up the verb with all these shades of meaning is one of the charming traits of Japanese. Insert important grammar relevant to your language here, and the point stands.) Katherine 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| ChristopherB Triglot Senior Member New Zealand Joined 6315 days ago 851 posts - 1074 votes 2 sounds Speaks: English*, German, French | Message 45 of 60 04 January 2008 at 12:01pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
I think as long as I'm aware of them, it's fine. Quite often the context makes things understandable, and/or I can find translations to get the meaning if need be. I bring up memorisation as it's often a way taught in school. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| matematikniels Tetraglot Groupie Denmark Joined 6251 days ago 78 posts - 84 votes Speaks: Danish*, English, German, Swedish Studies: Russian, Spanish | Message 46 of 60 04 January 2008 at 5:38pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
To me it would be really hard to understand e.g. the perfective / imperfective concept in Russian from exposure alone. And cases, often you can make sense of them from the context, but sometimes you might be wrong: Я работаю преподавателем means I work as a college teacher, not I work with the help of a college teacher. Recognising the instrumental case and knowing its use makes understanding a lot easier. Let alone Turkish. I don't think any amount of exposure would enable me to decipher gelmeyebilirim , I may not be able to come without grammar. Knowing some grammar, it's gel (stem of gelmek, to come), -me (not), -ebil (be able to, y is added after a vowel), -ir (aorist form, meaning in general: I may not be able to come at all, no matter when), -im (1. pers. sing. verbal ending, the "I"-part) When I get an explanation of vowel harmony, I can easily recognize the same pattern in bulmayabilirim, I may not be able to find. That concept takes ten minutes of explanation, but, I guess, months to grasp from exposure. With some explanation, I move a lot faster. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| matematikniels Tetraglot Groupie Denmark Joined 6251 days ago 78 posts - 84 votes Speaks: Danish*, English, German, Swedish Studies: Russian, Spanish | Message 47 of 60 04 January 2008 at 5:53pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
No claim to be official, but here's mine: Extensive reading is the reading of longer texts, not having to understand every word, but being expected to understand most of what is going on. Intensive reading is reading shorter texts, not only understanding every word, but also having to understand the forms. The purpose of extensive reading is to expand your vocabulary through exposure (and, of course, the value of the text). The purpose of intensive reading is to understand the mechanics of the language.
No, they made the distinction when I was in high school around forty years ago.
Yes, and then the above definition should be thoroughly scrutinized. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Zhuangzi Nonaglot Language Program Publisher Senior Member Canada lingq.com Joined 7027 days ago 646 posts - 688 votes Speaks: English*, French, Japanese, Swedish, Mandarin, Cantonese, German, Italian, Spanish Studies: Russian | Message 48 of 60 04 January 2008 at 8:12pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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I am enjoying my Russian. I have read the explanations of perfective and imperfective verbs a few times, and simply do not understand the concept. It is totally foreign to me. I also do not remember how all the different verbs of motion are used. Furthermore the passive and active are a little vague to me. I cannot remember when to use the different cases and the explanations and the exceptions are out of this world, obtuse and meaningless. furthermore it is impossible to remember the endings for all the combinations of gender, number and case (and exceptions).
I am aware that these things exist. I know from experience that languages just with enough exposure. What is holding me back is still vocabulary. If I know the meaning of the all words, I know the meaning of the text, almost always. I am most motivated to increase my vocabulary. It is measurable. Wen I have enough vocabulary, and even now. I am saving words that I know, simply to capture the phrase and to see a particular form of the word in many familiar examples that come from my reading in LingQ. Maybe if I had an exam to pass I would try harder to learn the grammar. I have bought a Russian grammar book. I have tried to read the grammar explanations in my beginner Russian books. My eyes glaze over and nothing penetrates. When I am reading or listening to something of interest in Russian, noticeably understanding more and more, naturally repeating certain phrases to myself out of the blue, with the correct ending of the noun without knowing which case it is, I am happy, very happy. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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