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I give up

 Language Learning Forum : Polyglots Post Reply
17 messages over 3 pages: 1 2 3  Next >>
Solfrid Cristin
Heptaglot
Winner TAC 2011 & 2012
Senior Member
Norway
Joined 5332 days ago
4143 posts - 8864 votes 
Speaks: Norwegian*, Spanish, Swedish, French, English, German, Italian
Studies: Russian

 
 Message 9 of 17
21 November 2010 at 11:00am | IP Logged 
Dear Cesare M

I have spent my Sunday moring going through all your posts, and if you allow me, I will give you a little advice.

Let me first say, that I am amazed and impressed by someone your age having had the interest and the talent to learn parts of so many languages. You obviously have a great talent for languages - if that is because of your autism, I do not know, but either way it is impressive. I therefore feel that you deserve recognition and admiration for that.

If you have not received it on this forum, I think it is because of your claim of fluency. Drop that, and people will be able to admire what you have acheived (some knowledge in a large amount of languages) in stead of knocking you for not being fluent.

You are surely aware of the fact that peoples' standards for what it is to be fluent here, are quite high. It goes beyond just being able to communicate in the language.
Having received compliments from a native speaker may make you feel good about the language, but it does not neccesarily mean that you are fluent.It also depends on their expectations.

I always receive compliments for my German, even though I am not fluent. I can speak it, in the sense that I can get my meaning across on most subjects, and my pronunciation is fairly good, but I will make frequent grammatical errors, and sometimes I struggle to find the right word. Do I speak German? Yes. Am I fluent? No. The same goes for Italian. Italians shower me with compliments when I speak Italian, but I have enough self criticism to realize, that this is more about them being unaccustomed to people learning Italian, and being delighted that I have bothered to, than about my Italian being great. Like German - I can speak it with a good pronunciation, and fairly rapidly, but I make way too many mistakes to say that I am fluent.

So my advice would therefore be: Undersell your abilities instead of overselling them, and you will be admired for what you can do, and not criticised for what you cannot. Your abilities are amazing by themselves, do not let yourself open to ridicule by claiming more than you can.

And the best of luck! If you have partial knowledge of this many languages at your age, you will be a world famous polyglot when you get to my age.


Edited by Solfrid Cristin on 21 November 2010 at 11:05am
19 persons have voted this message useful



Splog
Diglot
Senior Member
Czech Republic
anthonylauder.c
Joined 5667 days ago
1062 posts - 3263 votes 
Speaks: English*, Czech
Studies: Mandarin

 
 Message 10 of 17
21 November 2010 at 11:37am | IP Logged 
Cesare, you have already worked out what the issue is, and explained it very well
yourself. As you have said in several of your own videos, and in several posts on here,
different people simply have different definitions of fluency.

As you rightly state, when you claim to be fluent in a language, you are saying “I am
fluent by my own definition of fluency”. Nobody can argue with that.

People who share your definition of fluency are going to see you as fluent too. Whereas
people say you are not fluent, as you have pointed out yourself, they simply have a
definition of fluency.

We have to keep reminding ourselves that when you say “I am fluent” you are using your
definition, as are the people who agree with you.

Likewise, you have to keep reminding yourself that when somebody else says “No you are
not fluent” they are using a different measure of what fluency is.

Given all of that, it then becomes pretty useless to say and ask “I am fluent by my own
definition, and you cannot change my mind. By the way, do you agree?”

I say it is futile since when somebody answers “yes” you have to ask what that “yes”
means. Does it mean “I agree you are fluent by your own definition”, or does it mean “I
agree you are fluent, and it is according to my own definition of fluency”.

More important to you, it seems, is what it means when people say “No, you are not
fluent”.

This “no” can only mean one of two things:

“No, you are not fluent even by your own definition of fluency”, and you can clearly
ignore these answers since you know your own definition better than anyone.

The second meaning of “no” would be:

“No, you are not fluent - measured by my own definition of fluency which is not the
same as yours”. This is, I am sure, what a lot of people mean when they say “no”.

Since we have already agreed that people have very different definitions of fluency,
this type of “no” cannot be surprising to any of us, and doesn’t mean very much either.

The only reason I could see it being upsetting is if you want to be seen as fluent by
all possibly definitions of fluency, and that simply seems unrealistic, since no matter
how good you are, somebody will have a definition of fluency that almost nobody could
satisfy.

All of this focus on fluency, though, is a real distraction from the more important
issue, which is that you are tackling a large number of languages, and are making rapid
progress in all of them. That in itself is something worthy of great praise. Few could
achieve anything like that. I urge you to let people admire you for your real, and
admirable, achievements, and build on that.


Edited by Splog on 21 November 2010 at 12:13pm
20 persons have voted this message useful



zerothinking
Senior Member
Australia
Joined 6370 days ago
528 posts - 772 votes 
Speaks: English*

 
 Message 11 of 17
21 November 2010 at 12:21pm | IP Logged 
You kept pushing to prove yourself ubiquitously in these languages to a community of
language lovers and learners and you can't. So now you're calling constructive criticism
and advice bashing. And that's exactly an example of what a lot of people here don't like
about you. It's not your languages, it's the way you act about it all like Heinrich S.
explained.

Edited by zerothinking on 21 November 2010 at 12:23pm
14 persons have voted this message useful



Cesare M.
Senior Member
Canada
youtube.com/user/CheRegistered users can see my Skype Name
Joined 5168 days ago
99 posts - 135 votes 
Speaks: English*

 
 Message 12 of 17
21 November 2010 at 1:35pm | IP Logged 
Splog wrote:
Cesare, you have already worked out what
the issue is, and explained it very well
yourself. As you have said in several of your own videos, and
in several posts on here,
different people simply have different definitions of fluency.

As you rightly state, when you claim to be fluent in a language,
you are saying “I am
fluent by my own definition of fluency”. Nobody can argue with
that.

People who share your definition of fluency are going to see
you as fluent too. Whereas
people say you are not fluent, as you have pointed out
yourself, they simply have a
definition of fluency.

We have to keep reminding ourselves that when you say “I am
fluent” you are using your
definition, as are the people who agree with you.

Likewise, you have to keep reminding yourself that when
somebody else says “No you are
not fluent” they are using a different measure of what fluency
is.

Given all of that, it then becomes pretty useless to say and ask
“I am fluent by my own
definition, and you cannot change my mind. By the way, do
you agree?”

I say it is futile since when somebody answers “yes” you have
to ask what that “yes”
means. Does it mean “I agree you are fluent by your own
definition”, or does it mean “I
agree you are fluent, and it is according to my own definition of
fluency”.

More important to you, it seems, is what it means when people
say “No, you are not
fluent”.

This “no” can only mean one of two things:

“No, you are not fluent even by your own definition of fluency”,
and you can clearly
ignore these answers since you know your own definition
better than anyone.

The second meaning of “no” would be:

“No, you are not fluent - measured by my own definition of
fluency which is not the
same as yours”. This is, I am sure, what a lot of people mean
when they say “no”.

Since we have already agreed that people have very different
definitions of fluency,
this type of “no” cannot be surprising to any of us, and doesn’t
mean very much either.

The only reason I could see it being upsetting is if you want to
be seen as fluent by
all possibly definitions of fluency, and that simply seems
unrealistic, since no matter
how good you are, somebody will have a definition of fluency
that almost nobody could
satisfy.

All of this focus on fluency, though, is a real distraction from
the more important
issue, which is that you are tackling a large number of
languages, and are making rapid
progress in all of them. That in itself is something worthy of
great praise. Few could
achieve anything like that. I urge you to let people admire you
for your real, and
admirable, achievements, and build on that.


Thanks for the very nice comment. I guess I should have
thought my fluency that way. Thanks for telling me.
5 persons have voted this message useful



Aineko
Triglot
Senior Member
New Zealand
Joined 5446 days ago
238 posts - 442 votes 
Speaks: Serbian*, EnglishC2, Spanish
Studies: Russian, Arabic (Written), Mandarin

 
 Message 13 of 17
21 November 2010 at 7:27pm | IP Logged 
Splog wrote:

Given all of that, it then becomes pretty useless to say and ask “I am fluent by my own
definition, and you cannot change my mind. By the way, do you agree?”


In addition to asking people with different definitions to agree that he is fluent,
Cesare has filled his language profile by definitions of this forum
(basic/advanced fluency). That's not about his definitions any more. If he had put
majority of his languages at 'study - intermediate level' (or whatever) and then
demonstrated his ability and learning speed, I'm sure people would be more impressed
(and he is obviously after that). But claiming basic (and it was advanced in first
appearance) fluency in Serbo-Croatian (and then Serbian and Croatian separately, not
sure what's going on there), by this forum's definition, while not being able to put
together a simple sentence (as he demonstrated earlier), well, that's just not going to
produce the effect he is seeking.   

Cesare, as told already, try to focus less on people praising your skills and just
enjoy what you are doing with languages. With your ability and such approach, you will
definitely become a recognised polyglot.
13 persons have voted this message useful



CaucusWolf
Senior Member
United States
Joined 5270 days ago
191 posts - 234 votes 
Speaks: English*
Studies: Arabic (Written), Japanese

 
 Message 14 of 17
22 November 2010 at 2:44am | IP Logged 
    I think that perhaps we could have a more complex system of learning definitions as I've said before. Having better skills in writing rather then speaking or vice versa isn't really shown by the forums definition either. The option to choose how well your skills are in both may help.(perhaps we could even get rid of the whole fluency thing altogether since each has his own definition.)
     One could also be fluent in terms of writing and not in spoken or vice versa. In my opinion though all around fluency is true fluency.(but that is just my opinion.)
2 persons have voted this message useful



Cesare M.
Senior Member
Canada
youtube.com/user/CheRegistered users can see my Skype Name
Joined 5168 days ago
99 posts - 135 votes 
Speaks: English*

 
 Message 15 of 17
22 November 2010 at 3:18am | IP Logged 
CaucusWolf wrote:
     I think that perhaps we could have a
more complex system of learning definitions as I've said
before. Having better skills in writing rather then speaking or
vice versa isn't really shown by the forums definition either.
The option to choose how well your skills are in both may
help.(perhaps we could even get rid of the whole fluency thing
altogether since each has his own definition.)
     One could also be fluent in terms of writing and not in
spoken or vice versa. In my opinion though all around fluency
is true fluency.(but that is just my opinion.)


Thanks for another nice and considerate comment. Love your
user name. That user name could be a possible title to a song
and/or album for my band.

Edited by Cesare M. on 22 November 2010 at 5:32pm
1 person has voted this message useful



Cesare M.
Senior Member
Canada
youtube.com/user/CheRegistered users can see my Skype Name
Joined 5168 days ago
99 posts - 135 votes 
Speaks: English*

 
 Message 16 of 17
22 November 2010 at 5:33pm | IP Logged 
Splog wrote:
Cesare, you have already worked out what the issue is, and explained it very well
yourself. As you have said in several of your own videos, and in several posts on here,
different people simply have different definitions of fluency.

As you rightly state, when you claim to be fluent in a language, you are saying “I am
fluent by my own definition of fluency”. Nobody can argue with that.

People who share your definition of fluency are going to see you as fluent too. Whereas
people say you are not fluent, as you have pointed out yourself, they simply have a
definition of fluency.

We have to keep reminding ourselves that when you say “I am fluent” you are using your
definition, as are the people who agree with you.

Likewise, you have to keep reminding yourself that when somebody else says “No you are
not fluent” they are using a different measure of what fluency is.

Given all of that, it then becomes pretty useless to say and ask “I am fluent by my own
definition, and you cannot change my mind. By the way, do you agree?”

I say it is futile since when somebody answers “yes” you have to ask what that “yes”
means. Does it mean “I agree you are fluent by your own definition”, or does it mean “I
agree you are fluent, and it is according to my own definition of fluency”.

More important to you, it seems, is what it means when people say “No, you are not
fluent”.

This “no” can only mean one of two things:

“No, you are not fluent even by your own definition of fluency”, and you can clearly
ignore these answers since you know your own definition better than anyone.

The second meaning of “no” would be:

“No, you are not fluent - measured by my own definition of fluency which is not the
same as yours”. This is, I am sure, what a lot of people mean when they say “no”.

Since we have already agreed that people have very different definitions of fluency,
this type of “no” cannot be surprising to any of us, and doesn’t mean very much either.

The only reason I could see it being upsetting is if you want to be seen as fluent by
all possibly definitions of fluency, and that simply seems unrealistic, since no matter
how good you are, somebody will have a definition of fluency that almost nobody could
satisfy.

All of this focus on fluency, though, is a real distraction from the more important
issue, which is that you are tackling a large number of languages, and are making rapid
progress in all of them. That in itself is something worthy of great praise. Few could
achieve anything like that. I urge you to let people admire you for your real, and
admirable, achievements, and build on that.


That is a great idea. Thanks!


1 person has voted this message useful



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