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| oranje23 Newbie United States Joined 3745 days ago 2 posts - 2 votes Studies: Dutch | Message 1 of 13 29 August 2014 at 8:03pm | IP Logged | ||
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Hello, I have decided to start learning Dutch through self-study, and would very much
appreciate any advice on materials, strategies, etc. 1. Background. (a) I have no experience with Dutch. (b) My native language is Chinese (which is probably why I find it hard to pronounce "r" in either Spanish or Germany). I also have native fluency in English, having completed college and law school, as well as worked in the US. (c) My work schedule is very tight, so I won't have hours to devote to learning Dutch every day. However, I'm certain I have the motivation and diligence to spend some times (say 30 minutes per day) and carry on with my study for months, years, as long as it takes. 2. Goals. (a) I would like to build a solid foundation, learning the grammar, the "why" and the "how", instead of just phrases for touristic purposes (there is no need to learn Dutch if I just want to travel anyway). (b) I want to learn what is spoken and used in the Netherlands/Amsterdam, not Flemish or dialects. (c) My ultimate goal is to have reading fluency, and understand (most of) other Dutch speakers (e.g. understanding an TV interview with a Dutch football player). Speaking and writing are of secondary concern - not that I do not want to learn and practice these skills, but I would be happy with the ability to form short and simple sentences. 3. Material. I have obtained a bunch of books, CDs, electronic files from a friend who decided to learn Dutch on a whim and gave up too quickly. I am quite lost because there are too many options (listed below). My questions: What should I use from the following list, and what should I avoid? How can I supplement this list with additional materials (books, programs, websites, etc.)? In light of the goals above, what is a good strategy to tackle the materials (e.g. in what order, should I repeat any of them after completion etc.)? List (1) Assimil - Dutch With Ease Pack (Book plus CD MP3) (2013) (2) Michel Thomas - Start (2012), Total (2014), Perfect (2014) (3) Pimsleur - Comprehenive Dutch (2007) (4) Hugo - Dutch in 3 Months (2011), Hugo Advanced (1998), Taking Dutch Further (1997) (5) Teach Yourself - Complete Dutch (2011) (6) Colloquial - Colloquial Dutch (1996), Colloquial Dutch (2008), Colloquial Dutch 2 (2005) (7) Routledge - Dutch: A Comprehensive Grammar (2008), Basic Dutch: A Grammar and Workbook (2009), Intermediate Dutch: A Grammar and Workbook (2009) (8) Henry Stern - 201 Dutch Verbs: Fully Conjugated in All the Tenses (1979), Essential Dutch Grammar (1984) (9) A Reference Grammar of Dutch: With Exercises and Key (1999) (10) The New Routledge & Van Dale Dutch Dictionary: Dutch-English and English-Dutch (Routledge Bilingual Dictionaries) (2014) 4. Any other advice on learning Dutch? Thanks a lot for reading this long post and I look forward to getting suggestions and insights from everyone. :) 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4710 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes  Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 2 of 13 29 August 2014 at 8:40pm | IP Logged | ||
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You don't need all of these textbooks, I'd pick a few and work through those (keep the
dictionaries and grammars though, they're useful). I find that people overload themselves with textbooks and then never actually get anywhere; it's better to learn one textbook properly and stick with it than do three half-assed. In fact, I'd just try working through one or two of them. If they don't work, you can always get another one, but you need to experiment and see what works. There's no set way to go through it. The only way to know for sure is to check that it works. What this list is lacking is native materials. Today, I was out with a student of mine who's studying Dutch (I am one of the italki teachers) and she said that there's a definite shortage of materials in Dutch (but it gets better once your Dutch is a bit better). I agree. www.oefenen.nl is a good website for training your Dutch. If you enjoy TV, try Uitzending Gemist, you'll be able to watch all the TV you'd ever care to see. You can use Duolingo for Dutch now (it's in Beta). You can also use iTalki for speaking practice. I don't think Verbling has a Dutch option. I recommend lang-8 or Italki for writing. I also recommend InterPals and finding yourself a penpal in which you exchange Dutch for English or Chinese. Unfortunately, I must impress upon you that the letter "R" in Dutch is equal to either that of Spanish or German. If you're going for the Amsterdam variant (it's a particular dialect and NOT the standard), you need to learn to roll your r's. You also need to learn a whole tonne of other pronunciation aspects, and I recommend you spend the first two weeks just learning that. Pronunciation is KEY for being understood and even if you understand the grammar (which is important), it's less important than pronunciation in Dutch because without pronunciation and especially the faulty "R" pronunciation will simply cause people to speak English to you. Dutch pronunciation, unfortunately, is strongly dependent on who's talking. I speak a quite stiff and regular variant of Dutch, and I definitely do things that are non- standard when I speak. So be prepared for a LOT of variety. Do not bother with particular dialects; they can be very strong and they're almost exclusively used between close friends, family and so on, especially in more closed Dutch circles. Many young people don't speak dialect but retain the accent of the area they were born in, with a few expressions for good measure. I am no exception. The last thing is that your plan has no emphasis on dealing with Dutch culture, which in my view for Chinese or Anglophone people is a big barrier, much larger than the linguistic barrier. Dutch is very close to English and you'll find that you have most of the vocabulary handed to you on a plate. Edited by tarvos on 29 August 2014 at 8:43pm 11 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| 1e4e6 Octoglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4293 days ago 1013 posts - 1588 votes Speaks: English*, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Norwegian, Dutch, Swedish, Italian Studies: German, Danish, Russian, Catalan | Message 3 of 13 29 August 2014 at 11:08pm | IP Logged | ||
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I would add two things--dutchgrammar.com, which is
brilliant wherefore one should begin, especially in terms of structure and grammar. After the Assimil Le Néerlandais Sans Peine/Dutch with Ease, the La Pratique du Néerlandais (1978), which is very dense and thick with detail to follow the Assimil and the grammar workbooks and grammar manuals that you had already listed. It is one f the thickest Assimil methods that I have seen, even though it is part of the «Perfecionnement» series. With respect to native materials, Uitzending Gemist as mentioned above has endless selection and is always updated, but you could also choose radio if television or a computer is unavailable. Should you have a mobile/portable telephone, I would download the TuneIn application and place the selected station on something like NOS Nieuws or BNR Radio, which are 24 hour news/discussion stations without a repeating/rolling broadcast, i.e. they are constantly live 24 hours. Edited by 1e4e6 on 29 August 2014 at 11:40pm 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Speakeasy Senior Member Canada Joined 4055 days ago 507 posts - 1098 votes Studies: German | Message 4 of 13 29 August 2014 at 11:26pm | IP Logged | ||
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Hello oranje23
Welcome to the Forum. I have studied Dutch using most of the material on your list, along with other materials. From my experience, Tarvos is correct in advising that you do not need a lot of textbooks, particularly grammars. Here are my own suggestions: The New Routledge & Van Dale Dutch Dictionary Yes, absolutely! You might also consider Prisma Henry Stern, 201 Dutch Verbs: I have several “verb books” for studying French, Spanish, German, Russian, Italian, as well as a copy of Henry Stern’s 201 Dutch Verbs. I have found that these books are not all that necessary; I rarely consulted them while studying and this was particularly the case the more comfortable I became with the rules of conjugation. The only exceptions would be (a) if I were beginning to study a language with Pimsleur, I would probably buy a verb book, and (b) Bescherelle for any language that interests me. Grammars: I have all of the grammars that you listed; that is, I have far too many. I have found that most grammars provide fairly good explanations, but provide examples unsuitable for the beginner because he has not yet acquired sufficient vocabulary to understand them. Simply buy Henry Stern’s Essential Dutch Grammar, read through it once, quickly, and put it aside for the time being. Then, begin working with Michel Thomas, who uses decidedly unconventional terms (e.g., the “omdat effect”) and consult it as needed, as you move forward in your studies. Most good courses provide all the grammar you’re ever going to need. Pimsleur vs Michel Thomas: While I enjoyed both courses, I would recommend Michel Thomas simply because it costs less than Pimsleur. Furthermore, Michel Thomas includes a small glossary and a partial transcript, whereas with Pimsleur, you will have to develop your own notes and glossary by working backwards from the dialogues. The material covered by these courses is very similar, but not quite identical. If used conscientiously, both will provide you with a very basic introduction to Dutch and will build your confidence prior to attempting more challenging material. However, neither will take you very far; that is, not even to level A1. Hugo, Routledge Colloquial, Teach Yourself: These introductory courses compete with one another in the marketplace and are designed to take the student to, roughly, somewhere within the A1-A2 range, the latter level being perhaps wishful thinking. They cover more-or-less the same material and introduce more-or-less the same vocabulary. Pick one series, if you must, but my recommendation would be that, after having worked with Michel Thomas, you simply move on to Assimil Dutch With Ease, accompanied by Henry Stern’s Essential Dutch grammar. Assimil Dutch With Ease Assimil Dutch With Ease is a very solid course. While the publishers advertise that this course will take you to the B2 level, I suspect that B1 would be more realistic. Nonetheless, if used conscientiously, it will provide you with a solid foundation for further studies ... but you’ll have to work hard! Assimil La Pratique du Néerlandais While this course was published in French, and is no longer in circulation, copies can still be found on the Internet. It makes a great follow-up to the preceding Assimil course, IF you can locate a copy. Routledge Intensive Dutch Course I have bought (regrettably) several of the Routledge Intensive Courses. I say “regrettably” because they are not at all designed for the independent language learner and because they cover virtually the same material as most true self-study courses, but cost much more. Nonetheless, you might consider buying ONLY the 2 CDs that are sold separately with this course and using them as additional exercise material. Don’t be concerned about not having access to the course manual as (1) the dialogues on the CDs do not really follow the atrocious explanations in the manuals, (2) the transcripts of the CDs are freely available on Routledge’s website, and (3) neither the course manual nor the free transcripts contain translations. So, the 2 CDs could be useful for ear-training. Living Language Spoken World Dutch I mention this course because it is still available for sale and because it is, indeed, a solid basic introduction to the Dutch language. However, IF you’re going to use Assimil Dutch With Ease, then I would suggest that you not purchase Spoken World Dutch as you will have already covered the material with the former course. Linguaphone Complete Dutch (Cursus Nederlands) IF you cannot locate a copy of Assimil La Pratique du Néerlandais, I suggest that you consider Linguaphone Complete Dutch. Since it is a Beginner-Intermediate course, you will have already covered some of the material with, say, Assimil Dutch With Ease. However, the Linguaphone course material will present you with somewhat different vocabulary and dialogues will take you to a level somewhat above that of Assimil Dutch With Ease. The North American supplier is Linguaphone U.S.A.. Frankly, while I like the Linguaphone courses, I find them somewhat expensive. Nonetheless, I would not hesitate to purchase one of their refurbished courses. In fact, that is exactly how I acquired my copy of their Dutch course! DLI Refresher Course Some kind soul provided a link to the archived DLI Archived Courses. The DLI Dutch Refresher Course, while a little dated, provides an extensive Intermediate-Advanced level review of the Dutch language ... and it’s FREE!!! Online Courses, Podcasts, Video Courses, Newspapers, Magazines, Readers, Etcetera: I have “a tonne” of links and material that I could suggest, but I’m running out of steam on this post. Talk to ya later! **EDIT TO THE ABOVE POST** Dutch Readers The following two recently-published graded readers are designed to take the student from approximately B1 to C1-C2. Very challenging! Dutch for Reading Knowledge Routledge Intermediate Dutch Reader Edited by Speakeasy on 30 August 2014 at 12:41am 10 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| oranje23 Newbie United States Joined 3745 days ago 2 posts - 2 votes Studies: Dutch | Message 5 of 13 30 August 2014 at 1:17am | IP Logged | ||
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Wow, thanks to everyone for your kind replies.
My largest concern now is exactly having too many books (which, I suspect, is why my friend gave up quickly because she bought too many books and overwhelmed herself!). I'll familiarize myself with the language by using dutchgrammar.com and something like duolingo/Michel Thomas, before moving on to Assimil Dutch with Ease. tarvos: your advice on native material and cultural barrier is right on point! I hope that as I move beyond the very basic level, I'll be able to handle more native material and progress on learning the culture as well. As for pronouncing "R", it is hard for me, or at least unnatural, but not entirely impossible. Having said that, I do find Dutch pronunciation more difficult to manage than that of most other European languages I have exposure to. I'll definitely take the time to learn and practice my pronunciation. Speakeasy: Wow!... I mean.. WOW! Thanks for patiently evaluating everything I listed and make further suggestions. It feels like someone finally dragged me out of the sea of books and set me on a track lol. I do look forward to hearing about your "tonne" of links and material later! 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Vos Diglot Senior Member Australia Joined 5569 days ago 766 posts - 1020 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: Dutch, Polish | Message 6 of 13 30 August 2014 at 1:00pm | IP Logged | ||
Do you have any recommendations on how to learn about the Dutch culture? Perhaps books, materials, websites, etc., through which one can gain a better idea? Which aspects do you find to be some of the biggest barriers or cultural shocks for foreigners? Ik ben benieuwd ;) 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4710 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 7 of 13 30 August 2014 at 5:08pm | IP Logged | ||
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I don't know if you know about this book, but there's an apparently rollicking read
called "The Undutchables" which is required reading for everyone emigrating to the Netherlands. Other than that, you need to read blogs by people who integrate, and most of all learn about the aspect that makes the Dutch culture so Dutch - the way we interpret the word "samenleving" (community / living together). The Dutch culture is very based around privacy and one's freedom to do as they please, and the other side of the coin requires that people are left to their own devices very often. The Dutch are also not a meek bunch. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Antanas Tetraglot Groupie Lithuania Joined 4815 days ago 91 posts - 172 votes Speaks: Lithuanian*, English, Russian, German Studies: FrenchB1, Spanish | Message 8 of 13 30 August 2014 at 6:10pm | IP Logged | ||
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"Hugo Advanced" and "Taking Dutch Further" are two editions of the same book.
"Colloquial Dutch 2" is an advanced Dutch course. It goes well beyond A2. It also contains many notes about Dutch culture. Recently axed e-book reader by Sony (as well as earlier models) has a Dutch-English and English-Dutch dictionary built-in. If you read a series of books about De Cock, a police detective in Amsterdam, by A.C. Baantjer (a former policeman) you may learn quite a few things about the Netherlands and its history. If you know English grammar you can almost begin reading right from the start. I believe, the main your problem will be vocabulary. There are various ways to tackle it. It depends on your learning style. For example, I like listening to audiobooks. It may seem counter-intuitive, but, if you are not in a hurry to learn Dutch and/or you plan studying other Germanic languages (besides English that you already know) in the future, it might be a good idea to learn German first. There are much more Dutch resources in German than in English. And there are much more resources in English of German than of Dutch. There are much more audiobooks in German than it is in Dutch. The Dutch do not seem to like spoken word as much as the Germans or even the Swedes do. Also, for some prosodic reasons, German is spoken much slower than Dutch, so it is much easier for a first-time learner of a Germanic language (besides English) to grasp spoken German than spoken Dutch. After you learn German Dutch will be much easier to learn. Anyway, good luck. Edited by Antanas on 30 August 2014 at 6:10pm 2 persons have voted this message useful |
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