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About propedeutic benefits of Esperanto | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4710 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes  Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 17 of 26 24 October 2014 at 10:55pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
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I can, but the problem in my case was that studying languages is a prerequisite of the
Dutch school system and by the time I had any opportunity to learn Esperanto I already spoke two languages fluently and had been forced to learn another three (including Latin). Especially given one of them was Latin a lot of grammarese was already ingrained in me by that time. Unfortunately my school did not offer Ancient Greek, and I couldn't fit French into my exam subjects (else I would have taken it; I took Latin at the time). I should add that in my case Latin was technically an elective, but personally I loved Greco-Roman mythology, so I had to take Latin in school for my own sake. Edited by tarvos on 24 October 2014 at 10:56pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| tristano Tetraglot Senior Member Netherlands Joined 4050 days ago 905 posts - 1262 votes Speaks: Italian*, Spanish, French, English Studies: Dutch | Message 18 of 26 24 October 2014 at 11:44pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
hehe I was waiting for this answer :D I wasn't completely serious. For what is the vocabulary and partly the grammar, in any case, should be straightforward indeed. I'm just a little afraid of the cases but I guess it's just inducted by the whole 'oh my God the cases are so difficult!!!!111!!' that you find in Internet or by the stories of your peers that were forced to study Latin where actually they preferred to play football.
Now that you talk about Romanian (that is one of the next languages that I will study). Somewhere I read that Italian was the closest language to Latin. Somewhere else was Spanish instead, to be the closer to Latin. And I also read that Romanian is the one, instead. Where is the truth?
Fair enough.
Fair enough 2.
Well, that I guess depends. After a handful of languages, like our mates are noticing, can be a waste of time. So, to summarize: - those benefits are only for the first foreign language (that becomes thus the second) or there are benefits also to whom already speaks 4 and half languages before Esperanto? Apparently not. - can be beneficial to study slavic or slavic influenced languages? apparentely the core is mostly romantic so doesn't help a lot - is the claim that can be learned in 1/15 of the time of a natural language realistic (can one be fluent after 100/150 hours of study)? apparently yes, but depends by several factors and can therefore be delusional 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6600 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 19 of 26 25 October 2014 at 1:25am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
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I'd say there are benefits, but far less significant if you already speak a few languages. Also, the fluent in a short time thing mostly applies to those who study only one language and can devote a lot of time to it, and ideally this short-term study should lead to an immersion weekend (or more) at an Esperanto event. You can also find interesting deals like offering to teach you for free if you're not fluent after a specified amount of lessons. I know Sprachprofi used to (?) offer that. She also teaches Latin though ;D
One peculiarity of Esperanto is that you can say almost anything you want with a small list of affixes, but afaiu there are still standard equivalents/combinations of roots and affixes that you need at least to understand, and you may sound funny if you invent your own equivalents. toki pona is not strict about it but grammatically it's also more similar to Mandarin or Indonesian than the standard average European language. That said, Esperanto could be a good way for meeting Dutch language geeks ;) Edited by Serpent on 25 October 2014 at 1:33am 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| Cavesa Triglot Senior Member Czech Republic Joined 5012 days ago 3277 posts - 6779 votes Speaks: Czech*, FrenchC2, EnglishC1 Studies: Spanish, German, Italian | Message 20 of 26 25 October 2014 at 12:12pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
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I'd as well add a few more notes concerning the 1/15 of time or what was the number.
Yes, I am convinced you can learn really fast all there is to learn from courses and other typical learner aimed tools. You can learn all that for free. Lernu is a great base where you can get quite everything you need but there is much more available for free or really cheap, thanks to Esperanto being a language of enthusiasts who love to share it, not a language of business where learning tools are a huge business too. That is surely an advantage for people with really low budget. And there is no need for postponing the real learning by lengthy consideration in which course you are going to invest your money, so I'd say it is a good thing for people with this "decision making condition" ;-) However, I always learn large part of my knowledge and skills in a new language from tons of input. Tv series, books, movies, websites, music and so on. And I highly doubt there is enough of materials and you need to spend time finding them. And you cannot be that picky, which takes away from the fun factor that is normally crucial for this stage of learning. This fact can lenghten the time and lessen the efficiency of studying Esperanto significantly, in my opinion. But it is a factor affecting some kinds of learners heavily while others may not notice at all, depends on the learning style. 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| Cavesa Triglot Senior Member Czech Republic Joined 5012 days ago 3277 posts - 6779 votes Speaks: Czech*, FrenchC2, EnglishC1 Studies: Spanish, German, Italian | Message 21 of 26 25 October 2014 at 12:22pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
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Oh, about Latin. I dare say it is as near to Spanish as to Italian but my experience with Italian is extremely
limited. I think Latin makes an awesome propedeutic for other languages. The grammar is demanding yet logical and the courses do not try to shy away from it, they explain. The vocabulary transpires into all european languages, including the slavic branch. It teaches discipline and respect to knowledge, in my opinion. I think one of the main troubles of today's language teaching/learning mainstream is lack of this approach. Don't get me wrong, I am exemely grateful for many of the changes, such as wide accessibility of audio, wider opportunities and more focus on practice and so on. But everyone seems to be spending too much time and efforts on making everything effortless at the expense of efficiency. Latin teaching and learning approach is nothing like that. You either work hard and get results (and fun is a kind of reward for steps forward) or you don't. Your course is primarily teaching you, not primarily entertaining you. While I am one of those who failed, got stuck before reading real literatureand quit due to laziness (or not good enough ratio work/gain, that is another way to say it), Latin has made my life much richer and not only due to medicine studies. 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6600 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 22 of 26 25 October 2014 at 1:48pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
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Great posts as always. And piracy is looked down upon because it's such a small community.
Um, tristano, I was going to suggest that you can simply focus on the German cases as a preparation for the Slavic project, but I noticed you're not currently learning German :/ Why are you delaying the project anyway? In my experience, putting things off until New Year only makes you less likely to achieve them. (general you) 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| tristano Tetraglot Senior Member Netherlands Joined 4050 days ago 905 posts - 1262 votes Speaks: Italian*, Spanish, French, English Studies: Dutch | Message 23 of 26 25 October 2014 at 3:15pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
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I answer to the last posts backwards. I start with the last one and then I have to go so I will answer also to the others
as soon as I can. Why am I delaying the Slavic project. I have a problem right now. It's called "Dutch language". For some reason, I have really hard time to understand spoken Dutch when I have much better reading comprehension. The amazing thing is that I understand German much better but I never studied it seriously. As a consequence my Dutch studies require an incredible effort. With romance languages I'm like a sponge. Spanish is super easy. I can go to Spain today, talk in broken Spanish all the time and come back as A2 in one-two weeks. But Dutch is the only language that requires a lot from me, and I'm still not at the level that it's enough to read or watch movies to learn the language. Simultaneously, since the jump to just Romanian is quite big and the jump from Romanian to Polish is bigger, I wish to: - be better equipped to study grammatical heavy languages - not being stuck anymore with Dutch oral comprehension. For the first point indeed I would have a huge boost by studying Latin (and I can postpone Spanish grammar after Latin grammar as well). For the second point I need energies enough to do lot of listening/reading like I was doing so far, but that requires me to put another 3 months cycle after my Spanish cycle. In this moment I don't have the energies and the equipment to face the Slavic project being able to get a A2 level in a new language every three months, and it's why I'm postponing even if I can't wait to do it :) I just have the fear to get stuck with another language other than Dutch. Edited by tristano on 25 October 2014 at 3:15pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6600 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 24 of 26 25 October 2014 at 4:18pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
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Well but being stuck is a feeling, it depends on your mindset. See zenhabits and iguanamon's posts (maybe especially those in kuji's log).
With your current mindset, you may never feel like your Dutch is good enough. But even if you stay within that mindset, you're likely to feel less stuck in a language you like, learn for fun and face no pressure to learn. Just enjoy the process. It's also likely that your desire to learn other languages is contributing to your Dutch frustration. The only way to get rid of a temptation is to yield to it :) 2 persons have voted this message useful |
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