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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4705 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes  Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 9 of 41 31 March 2015 at 11:17am | IP Logged |
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But that true proficiency scale can't measure the emotions I convey when I am talking to
a prospective significant other in Chinese. So why should I care? Sorry, but the CEFR is for academic purposes. There are many things I can do that the CEFR just doesn't measure. And they may use shitty grammar, but people find them funny as hell :) And that's what I wanted to achieve :P 5 persons have voted this message useful | |
| garyb Triglot Senior Member ScotlandRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5205 days ago 1468 posts - 2413 votes Speaks: English*, Italian, French Studies: Spanish | Message 10 of 41 31 March 2015 at 11:28am | IP Logged |
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Yeah, I've seen similar things here with French. In fact, after five years of high school French I thought I could "speak French"... not particularly well or fluently, of course, but I believed I could at least get by and have simple conversations. Until I went to France and got an unpleasant surprise: I couldn't understand the French and they couldn't understand me. I see similar things with other people who've studied a language at school. I think that if you've studied at school but not had much "real world" exposure then you can have a false impression of how much you've learnt and how much there is to learn.
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| solocricket Tetraglot Groupie United StatesRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 3674 days ago 68 posts - 106 votes Speaks: English*, French, Italian, Spanish Studies: Dutch, Icelandic, Korean, Polish | Message 11 of 41 31 March 2015 at 1:37pm | IP Logged |
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It's really common in the US for people with 4-5 years of high school language classes
to think they speak the language. My boyfriend, who is seriously learning French, was recently taken aback when he met a friend's girlfriend who claimed she spoke French. He immediately thought she was fluent, if not native and he was pretty excited! Later, they had a brief conversation in French, and it was clear that she hardly spoke any at all. When I was in my first year of university, my friends all talked about the language they "spoke," which was the language they chose in high school. I had four years of Spanish myself, and I was well aware that I could read the tiniest bit, but that I didn't speak it at all. Still, I've never met someone so confident that they would speak fast, garbled Spanish to a native speaker! 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| Cavesa Triglot Senior Member Czech Republic Joined 5007 days ago 3277 posts - 6779 votes Speaks: Czech*, FrenchC2, EnglishC1 Studies: Spanish, German, Italian | Message 12 of 41 31 March 2015 at 1:39pm | IP Logged |
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CEFR is made for different purposes than those of many learners, doesn't include all
the normally needed skills and has one more trouble. Even various learners with the same official international certificate can have very different speaking skills. Some are at the bare limit for the level when tested while others are above it in the particular skill. For some, the cefr exam tasks and skills are their peak of the speaking skill while others are much more confident and proficient in another setting. And now I've been speaking only of the oficially tested ones, there are people who get less reliable tests (such as a national high school leaving exam claiming to be B1 where the spoken part could be passed with a few beginner sentences. That is a real example, no fiction) or their only clue is the level of the course/class they've been attending. And there could be many more reasons why cefr is not the panacea, I think those have been already covered in many threads. Why are we discussing it: Obviously, it has become a more wide spread phenomenon for Spanish among the americans than usual and it is affecting the natives' approach towards learners already. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5428 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 13 of 41 31 March 2015 at 3:32pm | IP Logged |
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Well, the CEFR scales may have its warts and deficiencies, but what's the alternative? Who says the CEFR is solely
for academic purposes? It is true that the CEFR exams used are used for selection purposes in many European schools and for professional or immigration requirements but that the CEFR was not designed for academic reasons. It was designed to represent in the most scientific way the true components of proficiency. For example, here, as a reminder, is the definition of a B1 level: 1. Can understand the main points of clear standard input on familiar matters regularly encountered in work, school, leisure, etc. 2. Can deal with most situations likely to arise while traveling in an area where the language is spoken. 3. Can produce simple connected text on topics that are familiar or of personal interest. 4. Can describe experiences and events, dreams, hopes and ambitions and briefly give reasons and explanations for opinions and plans. There is nothing particularly academic about this. It's a list of things you can do. If you say to me "I speak Spanish at B1 level", I have some idea of what this means. Can you talk to your significant other in B1 Spanish? Sure you can, albeit to a limited extent. If you're at a C1 level, it will be more sophisticated. Again, my question is: What are the alternatives? 2 persons have voted this message useful | |
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4705 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 14 of 41 31 March 2015 at 4:31pm | IP Logged |
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The alternative is to let your success in life decide how good you are. I had a
Russian class today and set myself the task of improvising Russian poetry on the spot and make it heart-wrenching and emotional. I succeeded in the task. I don't care if that makes me C1, C2, or D57. It just means I can spontaneously produce rhyme and reason which moves other people. Isn't the knowledge that you can do that enough? Why do I need a diploma to show that I can move other people with my speech? Or, if we're going to talk French, I remember a quote Eddie Izzard had about his stand-up routine in France (which he did in French even though he is English), which was along the lines of "people say: oh, his French is not that brilliant, but he's funny!" Why isn't that enough? Why do I need to measure this with a ruler and a pen and analyse it? Why can't we simply be moved like human beings when we have to be? Edited by tarvos on 31 March 2015 at 4:33pm 5 persons have voted this message useful | |
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5428 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 15 of 41 31 March 2015 at 5:00pm | IP Logged |
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The reason for having a system of reference for language proficiency is pretty simple and is the same for any body
of science: we agree on an objective set of concepts that allow us to discuss a subject in a meaningful way. Again, it depends on one's needs. The subject in this thread is the fact that people claim to speak Spanish yet are unable to have a decent conversation. So, the fundamental question is what do people mean when they say they speak Spanish? It seems that the term speaking a language is very vague. For some people that means the ability to "spontaneously produce rhyme and reason which moves other people". That's fine. The problem is that not everybody agrees with this definition. Is this a problem? For many people no. They define speaking a language in a way that suits them. This way they can claim to speak many languages. Just like all those Americans who claim to speak Spanish. The problem is always the same. Nobody knows what this means. 5 persons have voted this message useful | |
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4705 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 16 of 41 31 March 2015 at 5:12pm | IP Logged |
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Oh come on there is a very big difference between coming up with poetry in a foreign
language spontaneously and speaking Spanglish. You don't need a measurement system to be aware of that. We don't need an objective measurement system. We need a measurement system that is adapted to the requirements invoked on it by real life situations, something which a purely academic definition can never achieve. You know very well what I mean and repeating yourself isn't going to make the matter clearer. Edited by tarvos on 31 March 2015 at 5:13pm 4 persons have voted this message useful |
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