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Bull you believed starting out | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
 emk Diglot Moderator United States Joined 5531 days ago 2615 posts - 8806 votes  Speaks: English*, FrenchB2 Studies: Spanish, Ancient Egyptian Personal Language Map | Message 57 of 94 24 June 2015 at 7:38pm | IP Logged | |||||
Yeah, since we're talking about major changes to people's language learning ideas, I think this was a big part of Khatzumoto's switch from 10,000 sentences to MCDs. With the purely sentence based approach, some people learned to speak Japanese, but others wound up much better at understanding than speaking. With MCDs, you can choose to hide prepositions, inflections, gender markers, or any other grammatical details. You don't need to be able to explain why you use a given form, you just need to be notice what grammatical form should be used and supply it on demand. It's basically a really lazy way to study grammar and notice details, without having to learn too many explicit rules. 6 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| robarb Nonaglot Senior Member United States languagenpluson Joined 5058 days ago 361 posts - 921 votes Speaks: Portuguese, English*, German, Italian, Spanish, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, French Studies: Mandarin, Danish, Russian, Norwegian, Cantonese, Japanese, Korean, Polish, Greek, Latin, Nepali, Modern Hebrew | Message 58 of 94 24 June 2015 at 10:38pm | IP Logged | |||||
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@ Bao and Juan: Both of you write English excellently. Maybe the "bull we used to believe" is that there is one way
that works and everything else is useless. Evidently, both of your approaches work. Juan, if you truly only read texts and it was actually the first time you ever tried to listen to a native speaker talking in English, or the first time you ever tried to speak English, or the first time you ever tried to write English, I don't think it would go too well. You need some practice for those to come out right. But I agree that a kind of 95%-reading approach does work. If you use 95% reading to get your understanding to a very high level, then your first attempt at writing/speaking should be at least passable to start out, and you won't need much time to catch up. And I think the transfer cost is less from receptive skills to productive than the other way around. It may not happen automatically, but at least for many people, the cost is pretty low. 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6596 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 59 of 94 25 June 2015 at 12:06am | IP Logged | |||||
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Agreed, but it's much better to do lots of listening as well, for example with audiobooks.
1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| daegga Tetraglot Senior Member Austria lang-8.com/553301 Joined 4520 days ago 1076 posts - 1792 votes Speaks: German*, EnglishC2, Swedish, Norwegian Studies: Danish, French, Finnish, Icelandic | Message 60 of 94 25 June 2015 at 1:29pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Speaking of listening...
"you need to listen to progressively harder material, slightly above your comfort zone" (a generalization of the whole i+1 paradigm à la Krashen et al.) I even experimented with artificially degraded audio 1-2 years ago... :D My experience is that easy but interesting material works just as well. The difficulty will fluctuate around the "barely easy" threshold (interesting stuff is often more difficult, but you can make it easier by cheating, eg. using headphones, TL subtitles, ...) and the threshold will increase step by step. A natural way of cycling instead of linear progression. Of course the occasional intensive study of challenging material can have benefits. But the whole "if it's easy, it's a waste of time" mantra is bs. Edited by daegga on 25 June 2015 at 1:30pm 5 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6596 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 61 of 94 25 June 2015 at 8:50pm | IP Logged | |||||
This thread is turning into "things that can be useful if you don't hate them". 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| daegga Tetraglot Senior Member Austria lang-8.com/553301 Joined 4520 days ago 1076 posts - 1792 votes Speaks: German*, EnglishC2, Swedish, Norwegian Studies: Danish, French, Finnish, Icelandic | Message 62 of 94 25 June 2015 at 9:55pm | IP Logged | |||||
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here
the last two posts I don't really remember what the outcome was other than me choosing not to do that again. Edited by daegga on 25 June 2015 at 9:55pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6596 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 63 of 94 25 June 2015 at 10:07pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Aww yes now I remember.
To be fair, Silmarillion is difficult to read even in L1, and I'm not sure I'd handle an audiobook either. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| kanewai Triglot Senior Member United States justpaste.it/kanewai Joined 4888 days ago 1386 posts - 3054 votes Speaks: English*, French, Marshallese Studies: Italian, Spanish | Message 64 of 94 25 June 2015 at 11:14pm | IP Logged | |||||
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I forgot one biggie:
"I should try to speak as fast as the natives" I don't know why I thought this, but I know I'm not the only one. Especially with Spanish: students seem to have the idea that it's supposed to be spoken really, really fast. 3 persons have voted this message useful |
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