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Paz
Newbie
Chile
Joined 5363 days ago
3 posts - 4 votes
Speaks: Spanish*
Studies: English
| Message 33 of 59 20 March 2010 at 10:49pm | IP Logged |
siempre me he preguntado si las personas que estan aprendiendo a hablar en espanol
aprenden todos los modos de conjugación? es decir modo indicativo, modo imperativo y modo subjuntivo
1 person has voted this message useful
| tractor
Tetraglot
Senior Member
Norway
Joined 5453 days ago
1349 posts - 2292 votes 
Speaks: Norwegian*, English, Spanish, Catalan
Studies: French, German, Latin
| Message 34 of 59 20 March 2010 at 11:14pm | IP Logged |
IronFist wrote:
Do you guys think this is part of the reason why some people recommend listening to a language
for hundreds of hours before beginning to speak it? |
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I don't know, but listening to a language for hundreds of hours before beginning to speak it must be a waste of
time. You learn more if you activate the language, i.e. speaking and writing.
1 person has voted this message useful
| 
meramarina
Diglot
Moderator
United States
Joined 5967 days ago
1341 posts - 2303 votes
Speaks: English*, Spanish
Studies: German, Italian, French
Personal Language Map
| Message 35 of 59 20 March 2010 at 11:59pm | IP Logged |
Quote:
| I'd like to hear from actual learners of Spanish, who understand what I'm talking about from personal experience, has anyone actually mastered understanding the spoken language completely and competently without having lived in a Spanish-speaking country? |
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In response to the original question, no, I can't say that I ever mastered the language completely, but I don't expect to be able to do that. There are so many regional variations and accents that my understanding of spoken Spanish can vary a lot.
My comprehension of Spanish TV and radio can be very good in general, although I still have difficulty understanding extremely rapid speech or, sometimes, discussions of topics that I don't know much about. I used to take upper-level university classes entirely in Spanish, and my fellow classmates were all native speakers, and of them far more fluent than I was, but they were very patient with me, and with a lot of work I managed to do well in those courses. But I had an interesting experience when I began to use Spanish at work, a few years later, and it really gave me a lesson about classroom vs. real-life Spanish.
I noticed that sometimes I could communicate very well, and at other times, with other speakers, not very well at all. One day, a man approached me to ask directions, and I had so much trouble understanding his Spanish that I thought something was wrong with me! I really tried to help him: I understood that he was lost and that needed to be in another office, but I was just baffled about the rest. Another lady heard this conversation, and she asked if she could help. She began to talk to the man, in Spanish, and I could understand her speech almost perfectly! When they finished talking, I asked the lady why I could comprehend her, but not the man. She explained to me that she was from Puerto Rico, and the man was from Peru, and that he spoke a regional Peruvian dialect. I think that's when I really understood, for the first time, how different spoken Spanish can sound. I never really had that problem in school; my classmates were from different areas of the world, but they must have standardized their speaking for the classroom.
I have not spent time in any Spanish-speaking country. I really wish I could do that!
I have read a lot, but that's not the same experience. When I read native-language Spanish fiction, I always find many regional expressions I don't understand, and often these are not even in the dictionary. Unfortunately, I have not been working much on Spanish lately, and so my fluency is somewhat stunted right now. I'll always need to work on this, a lot, and as a non-native learner, there is so much more to know than I'll ever have time to learn. But I'm glad I studied the language, all the same.
Edited by meramarina on 21 March 2010 at 12:03am
3 persons have voted this message useful
| datsunking1
Diglot
Senior Member
United States
Joined 5585 days ago
1014 posts - 1533 votes
Speaks: English*, Spanish
Studies: German, Russian, Dutch, French
| Message 36 of 59 21 March 2010 at 12:15am | IP Logged |
meramarina wrote:
Quote:
| I'd like to hear from actual learners of Spanish, who understand what I'm talking about from personal experience, has anyone actually mastered understanding the spoken language completely and competently without having lived in a Spanish-speaking country? |
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In response to the original question, no, I can't say that I ever mastered the language completely, but I don't expect to be able to do that. There are so many regional variations and accents that my understanding of spoken Spanish can vary a lot.
My comprehension of Spanish TV and radio can be very good in general, although I still have difficulty understanding extremely rapid speech or, sometimes, discussions of topics that I don't know much about. I used to take upper-level university classes entirely in Spanish, and my fellow classmates were all native speakers, and of them far more fluent than I was, but they were very patient with me, and with a lot of work I managed to do well in those courses. But I had an interesting experience when I began to use Spanish at work, a few years later, and it really gave me a lesson about classroom vs. real-life Spanish.
I noticed that sometimes I could communicate very well, and at other times, with other speakers, not very well at all. One day, a man approached me to ask directions, and I had so much trouble understanding his Spanish that I thought something was wrong with me! I really tried to help him: I understood that he was lost and that needed to be in another office, but I was just baffled about the rest. Another lady heard this conversation, and she asked if she could help. She began to talk to the man, in Spanish, and I could understand her speech almost perfectly! When they finished talking, I asked the lady why I could comprehend her, but not the man. She explained to me that she was from Puerto Rico, and the man was from Peru, and that he spoke a regional Peruvian dialect. I think that's when I really understood, for the first time, how different spoken Spanish can sound. I never really had that problem in school; my classmates were from different areas of the world, but they must have standardized their speaking for the classroom.
I have not spent time in any Spanish-speaking country. I really wish I could do that!
I have read a lot, but that's not the same experience. When I read native-language Spanish fiction, I always find many regional expressions I don't understand, and often these are not even in the dictionary. Unfortunately, I have not been working much on Spanish lately, and so my fluency is somewhat stunted right now. I'll always need to work on this, a lot, and as a non-native learner, there is so much more to know than I'll ever have time to learn. But I'm glad I studied the language, all the same.
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You and I are in the same boat hahaha :) I can read almost anything and understand at least 80% of it... speech... is like getting punched in the face if it's rapid.
Half the time I get tripped up on one word and miss the ones that are after it :P
1 person has voted this message useful
| TheBiscuit
Tetraglot
Senior Member
Mexico
Joined 5923 days ago
532 posts - 619 votes
Speaks: English*, French, Spanish, Italian
Studies: German, Croatian
| Message 37 of 59 21 March 2010 at 5:19am | IP Logged |
Johntm wrote:
datsunking1 wrote:
TheBiscuit wrote:
datsunking1 wrote:
TheBiscuit wrote:
duschan wrote:
I would like to hear from learners of Spanish if anyone has actually mastered the
spoken language, and if so how long it took and what they did to get there. After two
years of study, I've come to the point when I'm thinking about stopping any further
study, because I don't know how to continue. I've come to the point when I can
understand any newspaper article, no matter how complex it is, or read Nobel prize
literature in Spanish without any major difficulty, but at the same time unable to
understand a relatively simple conversation. |
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Here's my journey through Spanish, perhaps it'll be of some help.
I came to Mexico about 5 years ago with no Spanish. The only thing I had studied was an MT course. For about the first 6 months to a year I just listened, observed, paid attention to what was going on around me, read the newspaper sometimes, watched TV etc. I didn't take any classes or force myself to speak at that point.
I started speaking about a year or so after being here. I spoke before but by this I mean I began to express myself, participate in conversations more. I think the key to speaking for me was learning how to interact/converse in Spanish. Getting my listening up to high level was important as I couldn't contribute (well) to a conversation I couldn't follow. When I could follow any conversation effortlessly, I found speaking with people much easier. It's a slow process at first but you'll find it gains pace at a terrific rate and before you know it you're fairly fluent, as I was after about 2 years or so. I've found that the higher your listening skills are in one kind of Spanish, the easier it is to understand others. I haven't found the need to study endless books of idioms etc. in order to understand Argentine or Peruvian Spanish.
It's only in the past year or so that I've got into the literature, kind of the reverse of your process. I would say push the listening but also find some way to interact with native speakers. It's depressing at first, especially if you have a high level in other areas but I think it's worth it. |
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Why did you come to Mexico? :) I just think it would be interesting to hear how you got there, I would love to have to move to a foreign country for business or whatever :) |
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Well, it's a long story. I just came for a month to see if things would work out... and that was 5 years ago! Now enjoying life in the last free country in North America! |
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I was actually thinking about moving there, not kidding :D
Spanish speakers seem to be very friendly to people that are either learning or know their language. Can you back this up?
Do you enjoy living there? How's the quality of life and everything?
Mind me asking, but what do you do for a living? (I know it's a rude question to ask, so you don't have to answer if you don't want to, I just want to know what job I can go into to move :P) I'm going to be an engineer :) |
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And how lax are some of the laws compared to in the US (if you know our laws). Like freedom of speech, gun control, etc. I know guns are very prevalent though. |
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I teach languages, English mainly and translate on the side. Plenty of work here for engineers, especially English speaking ones. The city I live in is like a mini Detroit.
Mexicans are pretty friendly and welcoming at first. They'll patiently listen to you speak Spanish but probably won't correct you - it's considered rude.
The cost of living is rising but it's still relatively cheap. Now would be a great time to invest in property here as I'm sure prices will sky-rocket at some point.
I like living here. There are laws of course, but how they're applied, if at all, can vary a lot. There's a way round everything here. Sometimes it works in your favour, sometimes it's just annoying. It's nowhere near as dangerous as the US media would have you believe. I mean, the border towns are a little scary but there are plenty of other cities in Mexico which are nice to live in. Ironically the 'American Dream' is probably more plausible in Mexico.
1 person has voted this message useful
| Johntm
Senior Member
United StatesRegistered users can see my Skype Name
Joined 5422 days ago
616 posts - 725 votes
Speaks: English*
Studies: Spanish
| Message 38 of 59 21 March 2010 at 5:37am | IP Logged |
Volte wrote:
Johntm wrote:
JacobTM wrote:
As an Engineer, you'll be in the upper crust of Mexico's economic hierarchy, but you'll still have to worry about the usual problems of getting mugged if you're walking around alone too late etc. |
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Carry a knife/gun. Problem solved:) |
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Idiotic advice. A knife/gun escalate the situation, and won't help much against a group, or anyone who's also armed and more prepared than you are.
Safety isn't that simple, and glibly offering incorrect advice on it is something I don't condone.
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Depends on how you use it. It's more likely to diffuse it. And it'd be a hell of a lot better against a group, as opposed to bare hands. Of course safety isn't that simple, you'd have to know how to use it and get a permit (if required).
1 person has voted this message useful
| Johntm
Senior Member
United StatesRegistered users can see my Skype Name
Joined 5422 days ago
616 posts - 725 votes
Speaks: English*
Studies: Spanish
| Message 39 of 59 21 March 2010 at 5:38am | IP Logged |
TheBiscuit wrote:
Johntm wrote:
datsunking1 wrote:
TheBiscuit wrote:
datsunking1 wrote:
TheBiscuit wrote:
duschan wrote:
I would like to hear from learners of Spanish if anyone has actually mastered the
spoken language, and if so how long it took and what they did to get there. After two
years of study, I've come to the point when I'm thinking about stopping any further
study, because I don't know how to continue. I've come to the point when I can
understand any newspaper article, no matter how complex it is, or read Nobel prize
literature in Spanish without any major difficulty, but at the same time unable to
understand a relatively simple conversation. |
|
|
Here's my journey through Spanish, perhaps it'll be of some help.
I came to Mexico about 5 years ago with no Spanish. The only thing I had studied was an MT course. For about the first 6 months to a year I just listened, observed, paid attention to what was going on around me, read the newspaper sometimes, watched TV etc. I didn't take any classes or force myself to speak at that point.
I started speaking about a year or so after being here. I spoke before but by this I mean I began to express myself, participate in conversations more. I think the key to speaking for me was learning how to interact/converse in Spanish. Getting my listening up to high level was important as I couldn't contribute (well) to a conversation I couldn't follow. When I could follow any conversation effortlessly, I found speaking with people much easier. It's a slow process at first but you'll find it gains pace at a terrific rate and before you know it you're fairly fluent, as I was after about 2 years or so. I've found that the higher your listening skills are in one kind of Spanish, the easier it is to understand others. I haven't found the need to study endless books of idioms etc. in order to understand Argentine or Peruvian Spanish.
It's only in the past year or so that I've got into the literature, kind of the reverse of your process. I would say push the listening but also find some way to interact with native speakers. It's depressing at first, especially if you have a high level in other areas but I think it's worth it. |
|
|
Why did you come to Mexico? :) I just think it would be interesting to hear how you got there, I would love to have to move to a foreign country for business or whatever :) |
|
|
Well, it's a long story. I just came for a month to see if things would work out... and that was 5 years ago! Now enjoying life in the last free country in North America! |
|
|
I was actually thinking about moving there, not kidding :D
Spanish speakers seem to be very friendly to people that are either learning or know their language. Can you back this up?
Do you enjoy living there? How's the quality of life and everything?
Mind me asking, but what do you do for a living? (I know it's a rude question to ask, so you don't have to answer if you don't want to, I just want to know what job I can go into to move :P) I'm going to be an engineer :) |
|
|
And how lax are some of the laws compared to in the US (if you know our laws). Like freedom of speech, gun control, etc. I know guns are very prevalent though. |
|
|
I teach languages, English mainly and translate on the side. Plenty of work here for engineers, especially English speaking ones. The city I live in is like a mini Detroit.
Mexicans are pretty friendly and welcoming at first. They'll patiently listen to you speak Spanish but probably won't correct you - it's considered rude.
The cost of living is rising but it's still relatively cheap. Now would be a great time to invest in property here as I'm sure prices will sky-rocket at some point.
I like living here. There are laws of course, but how they're applied, if at all, can vary a lot. There's a way round everything here. Sometimes it works in your favour, sometimes it's just annoying. It's nowhere near as dangerous as the US media would have you believe. I mean, the border towns are a little scary but there are plenty of other cities in Mexico which are nice to live in. Ironically the 'American Dream' is probably more plausible in Mexico. |
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Sweet, maybe Mexico is in my future?
1 person has voted this message useful
| Volte
Tetraglot
Senior Member
Switzerland
Joined 6439 days ago
4474 posts - 6726 votes
Speaks: English*, Esperanto, German, Italian
Studies: French, Finnish, Mandarin, Japanese
| Message 40 of 59 21 March 2010 at 5:56am | IP Logged |
Johntm wrote:
Volte wrote:
Johntm wrote:
JacobTM wrote:
As an Engineer, you'll be in the upper crust of Mexico's economic hierarchy, but you'll still have to worry about the usual problems of getting mugged if you're walking around alone too late etc. |
|
|
Carry a knife/gun. Problem solved:) |
|
|
Idiotic advice. A knife/gun escalate the situation, and won't help much against a group, or anyone who's also armed and more prepared than you are.
Safety isn't that simple, and glibly offering incorrect advice on it is something I don't condone.
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|
|
Depends on how you use it. It's more likely to diffuse it. And it'd be a hell of a lot better against a group, as opposed to bare hands. Of course safety isn't that simple, you'd have to know how to use it and get a permit (if required). |
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Safety has several components.
1) Awareness. Know what areas are dangerous at what times of day, pay attention to your surroundings, pay attention to warnings about what to avoid.
2) Avoidance. See trouble coming and avoid it. If there's a bar fight breaking out, consider leaving, for example. If there are a group of people looking questionable or dangerous, move away, to a well-lighted street with lots of people.
3) If things have already gotten difficult, look for a way out. Perhaps you can de-escalate the situation verbally, perhaps you should run, perhaps you should hand over all your cash and be glad to keep the rest of your wallet and leave unharmed.
4) As a last resort, there's violence or the threat of violence. This should never be done lightly. If you're against 10 people with a knife, it's really not likely to end well for you, no matter how well you're trained. If you're carrying a gun you're not trained to use in a foreign country with language and culture barriers and use it, the situation is also extremely unlikely to end well for you.
Waving or using a weapon will scare away some attackers; it also increases the odds that you wind up seriously harmed or dead if the attacker(s) are not scared off. It's not advice to casually give to people, with or without suggestions that they get training, and it's never a first resort, much less "problem solved".
Travelers (and people in general) should pay attention to safety; with any luck, point 1 is all they'll ever end up using in practice. If they're interested in learning how to use a weapon or in self-defense in general, classes are readily available - and every good class will warn against casually escalating situations.
1 person has voted this message useful
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