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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| Delodephius Bilingual Tetraglot Senior Member Yugoslavia Joined 5402 days ago 342 posts - 501 votes  Speaks: Slovak*, Serbo-Croatian*, EnglishC1, Czech Studies: Russian, Japanese | Message 25 of 43 17 February 2010 at 2:17am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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I suggested Illyrian or New Illyrian since that is the historic name of the region since ancient times (it was resurrected once already, Illyrian Provinces from 1809 to 1816 and the Kingdom of Illyria from 1816 to 1849). Besides, Serbo-Croatian has been traditionally referred to as Illyrian until the 19th century, especially in foreign works. Only in the last two hundred years when the language has been standardized did Illyrian fall out of use (Vuk Karadžić called the term Illyrian "dark, obscure"). Of course linguistically no one knows to what language ancient Illyrian was related (not even to Albanian) since there is extremely little of it that remains. But if Serbo-Croatian has been referred to as Illyrian for a thousand years then why not resurrect this tradition?
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| Chung Diglot Senior Member Joined 7155 days ago 4228 posts - 8259 votes 20 sounds Speaks: English*, French Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish | Message 26 of 43 17 February 2010 at 4:40am | IP Logged | ||||||||
It could be a hangover from Karadzic's criticism of the term "Illyrian", or its association to the Croatocentric Illyrian movement that hinders wider acceptance of the term. While calling a modern Slavonic language "Illyrian" would probably evince relatively little criticism from nationalist hotheads who would insist on the exclusivity of "Illyrian" (think of the Greeks' usual disgust over the use of "Macedonian" or "Macedonia" when talking about that Slavonophone country between Bulgaria and Serbia), using "New Illyrian" as suggested would be helpful in order to eliminate confusion with Illyrian of Antiquity. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| trance0 Pentaglot Groupie Slovenia Joined 5749 days ago 52 posts - 78 votes Speaks: Slovenian*, English, German, Croatian, Serbian | Message 27 of 43 18 February 2010 at 1:57pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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I like this New Illyrian. :D
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| Delodephius Bilingual Tetraglot Senior Member Yugoslavia Joined 5402 days ago 342 posts - 501 votes Speaks: Slovak*, Serbo-Croatian*, EnglishC1, Czech Studies: Russian, Japanese | Message 28 of 43 18 February 2010 at 3:33pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Well I was thinking it could be used in the way English is used: American English, British English, Australian English, etc.
In the same way we could say: Croatian Illyrian, Serbian Illyrian, Bosnian Illyrian, Montenegrin Illyrian. However, speakers of one these variants when talking amongst themselves could simply call their language by its variant's name, i.e. amongst themselves the Serbs would call it Serbian, but when asked by a foreigner what language they speak they could say Serbian Illyrian or just Illyrian. We could also go a step further and say West Illyrian for Croatian, Central Illyrian for Bosnian, East Illyrian for Serbian, and South Illyrian for Montenegrin, thus eliminating the national implication completely. 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| minus273 Triglot Senior Member France Joined 5764 days ago 288 posts - 346 votes Speaks: Mandarin*, EnglishC2, French Studies: Ancient Greek, Tibetan | Message 29 of 43 18 February 2010 at 5:14pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
This won't work, as "East" "West" etc. implies natural dialect division, which has nothing to do with the ethnicity of the speaker. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Chung Diglot Senior Member Joined 7155 days ago 4228 posts - 8259 votes 20 sounds Speaks: English*, French Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish | Message 30 of 43 18 February 2010 at 5:26pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
I think that the idea is to get above national or ethnic identification. I still think that the most neutral way would be to use "New Shtokavian" when talking about the standard variants, but New Illyrian can also work. If people want to be picky, they could always add the ethnic identifier by analogy to English as suggested by Delodephius (e.g. "Croatian [New} Illyrian"). 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| minus273 Triglot Senior Member France Joined 5764 days ago 288 posts - 346 votes Speaks: Mandarin*, EnglishC2, French Studies: Ancient Greek, Tibetan | Message 31 of 43 18 February 2010 at 5:31pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
Yes. A person speaks Croatian not because of the linguistic affiliation of his speech, but because he identifies himself as a Croat. For this reason, it's bad usage to say "West Illyrian" for "Croatian", as "West Illyrian" should be representing one of the Shtokavian dialect groups rather than an arbitrarily drawn language. Edited by minus273 on 18 February 2010 at 5:31pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Delodephius Bilingual Tetraglot Senior Member Yugoslavia Joined 5402 days ago 342 posts - 501 votes Speaks: Slovak*, Serbo-Croatian*, EnglishC1, Czech Studies: Russian, Japanese | Message 32 of 43 19 February 2010 at 12:11am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Ok, no geographic identifiers, these should be used for dialects.
But New Shtokavian can also imply Macedonian and Bulgarian. I really can't think of anything more proper than Illyrian or New Illyrian (though I think few will use New Illyrian, except maybe when relating to Ancient Illyrian in which case Modern Illyrian is ok as well). I can only thing of descriptive names like South Central Slavic, or West Balkan Slavic, etc. Illyrian has historic basis since this is how the language was referred to as once, even though mostly by foreigners, Vatican in particular, so its usage may find bit of resistance among some of it speakers (Orthodox Serbs most likely). But also names Dinaric comes to mind. Dinaric Alps form a mountain chain that spans exactly through the four countries where Serbian, Croatian, Bosnian is spoken. The term Dinaric men is sometimes used for these people, a remnant of an old sub-racial classification. It is I think more neutral than Illyrian although it would be brand new as I don't think the term Dinaric language was ever used. Edited by Delodephius on 19 February 2010 at 12:11am 1 person has voted this message useful |
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