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Chung
Diglot
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 Message 33 of 43
19 February 2010 at 3:34am | IP Logged 
Delodephius wrote:
Ok, no geographic identifiers, these should be used for dialects.

But New Shtokavian can also imply Macedonian and Bulgarian. I really can't think of anything more proper than Illyrian or New Illyrian (though I think few will use New Illyrian, except maybe when relating to Ancient Illyrian in which case Modern Illyrian is ok as well). I can only thing of descriptive names like South Central Slavic, or West Balkan Slavic, etc. Illyrian has historic basis since this is how the language was referred to as once, even though mostly by foreigners, Vatican in particular, so its usage may find bit of resistance among some of it speakers (Orthodox Serbs most likely).

But also names Dinaric comes to mind. Dinaric Alps form a mountain chain that spans exactly through the four countries where Serbian, Croatian, Bosnian is spoken. The term Dinaric men is sometimes used for these people, a remnant of an old sub-racial classification. It is I think more neutral than Illyrian although it would be brand new as I don't think the term Dinaric language was ever used.


Actually New Shtokavian cannot refer to Macedonian or Bulgarian when you consider what "old" and "new" refer to. The reason why is that "Old Shtokavian" dialects still use free accentual placement (i.e. stress can fall on any syllable). For some reason during the Middle Ages, speakers of certain Old Shtokavian dialects started to pronounce things in a way where the stress of words was now pronounced one syllable closer to the beginning. This is sometimes referred to as the "Shtokavian shift" and lead to the splitting of Shtokavian dialects into "Old" and "New". This basically means that stress in a New Shtokavian dialect can fall on any syllable EXCEPT the last one. According to the Wikipedia article on Serbo-Croatian:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbo-Croatian_language#Phonology wrote:

Comparative and historical linguistics offers some clues for memorising the accent position: If one compares many standard Serbo-Croatian words to e.g. cognate Russian words, the accent in the Serbo-Croatian word will be one syllable before the one in the Russian word, with the rising tone. Historically, the rising tone appeared when the place of the accent shifted to the preceding syllable (the so-called "Neoštokavian retraction"), but the quality of this new accent was different - its melody still "gravitated" towards the original syllable. Most Štokavian dialects (Neoštokavian) dialects underwent this shift, but Čakavian, Kajkavian and the Old Štokavian dialects did not.


Bulgarian and Macedonian are Shtokavian but they were NOT standardized on a New Shtokavian dialect (i.e. Shtokavian dialects which underwent the aforementioned Neoshtokavian retraction or shift) as Serbo-Croatian (or BCMS) had been.
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Delodephius
Bilingual Tetraglot
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 Message 34 of 43
19 February 2010 at 10:31am | IP Logged 
You got me there, I know almost nothing about Serbo-Croatian accents only which ones exist.

However, I don't like adding the "New" to this language. I would prefer if it was just one word, to make it as simple as possible.

Edited by Delodephius on 21 February 2010 at 10:59pm
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Magnum
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 Message 35 of 43
21 February 2010 at 7:26pm | IP Logged 
Iversen wrote:
I have chosen to say that I dabble in Serbian for one simple reason: the Cyrillic alphabet.


I am surprised this has not been mentioned before your post on the third page. In Serbia this is more popular, although both are used.

I would vote Serbian as the better choice because of the alphabet and it would be helpful to those who want to learn Russian later.
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Chung
Diglot
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 Message 36 of 43
21 February 2010 at 10:15pm | IP Logged 
Magnum wrote:
Iversen wrote:
I have chosen to say that I dabble in Serbian for one simple reason: the Cyrillic alphabet.


I am surprised this has not been mentioned before your post on the third page. In Serbia this is more popular, although both are used.


The belief that Cyrillic is more popular in Serbia seems a bit at odds with what this article from 2008 notes.

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Europe/2008/0529/p20s01-woeu. html

The article also lines up better with Iversen's comments on his difficulty in finding as much Serbian stuff in the Cyrillic alphabet as in the Latin one.
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Delodephius
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 Message 37 of 43
21 February 2010 at 10:59pm | IP Logged 
I personally don't like the Serbian Cyrillic. None of the Vuk's letters appeal to me and overall the entire written language in Cyrillic is hideous. I stick to the Latin script all the time. Most Serbs would accuse me of being pro-Western because of this, but in truth I like the older Cyrillic scripts of all Slavic languages that used them; my choice is purely aesthetical, not ideological or something like that.
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Aleksey Groz
Tetraglot
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Yugoslavia
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 Message 38 of 43
15 March 2010 at 4:25pm | IP Logged 
Magnum wrote:
Iversen wrote:
I have chosen to say that I dabble in Serbian for one
simple reason: the Cyrillic alphabet.


I am surprised this has not been mentioned before your post on the third page. In Serbia
this is more popular, although both are used.

I would vote Serbian as the better choice because of the alphabet and it would be helpful
to those who want to learn Russian later.


In Serbia Cyrillic alphabet is more popular than who or what? I live in Serbia, and all
people around me write almost exclusively in Latin alphabet. If we use Cyrillic script
it's mostly in some official documents.
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Aleksey Groz
Tetraglot
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Yugoslavia
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Speaks: Serbo-Croatian*, English, Czech, FrenchB2

 
 Message 39 of 43
15 March 2010 at 4:29pm | IP Logged 
Delodephius wrote:
I personally don't like the Serbian Cyrillic. None of the Vuk's
letters appeal to me and overall the entire written language in Cyrillic is hideous. I
stick to the Latin script all the time. Most Serbs would accuse me of being pro-Western
because of this, but in truth I like the older Cyrillic scripts of all Slavic languages
that used them; my choice is purely aesthetical, not ideological or something like
that.


I like Serbian Cyrillic, but I don't use it. I just didn't used on it.
And no, I would not say that you are pro-Western (what that means, at all?!). You just
use a
script which you prefer more and that's it!

Edited by Aleksey Groz on 15 March 2010 at 4:30pm
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Aleksey Groz
Tetraglot
Newbie
Yugoslavia
Joined 5368 days ago
14 posts - 19 votes
Speaks: Serbo-Croatian*, English, Czech, FrenchB2

 
 Message 40 of 43
15 March 2010 at 4:31pm | IP Logged 
I'm all for Shtokavian!


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