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ericspinelli Diglot Senior Member Japan Joined 5782 days ago 249 posts - 493 votes Speaks: English*, Japanese Studies: Korean, Italian
| Message 17 of 37 31 January 2010 at 4:02am | IP Logged |
IronFist wrote:
Sadly, even after listening to Korean for 10 years, I still can't understand their consonants. I'm willing to give things one last try, however, before I give up forever. |
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Listening or understanding? I think comprehension is key. Being able to distinguish the words through context, along with the knowledge that there is indeed a difference in sound, should make things easier.
IronFist wrote:
I guess I was asking what the Korean equivalent of "kimi" would be. |
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I believe 君 = 자네, though I don't know the connotations the word has.
Edited by ericspinelli on 31 January 2010 at 4:10am
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| IronFist Senior Member United States Joined 6436 days ago 663 posts - 941 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Japanese, Korean
| Message 18 of 37 31 January 2010 at 4:32am | IP Logged |
ericspinelli wrote:
Listening or understanding? I think comprehension is key. Being able to distinguish the words through context, along with the knowledge that there is indeed a difference in sound, should make things easier.
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Both. It's like my brain shuts off when I try to learn Korean.
Sometimes I'll hear something, like in a song, and then I'll try to guess what they were saying (phonetically) and then go look up the lyrics and I was so wrong... I got the consonants wrong, the vowels wrong... everything wrong. And I don't just mean the normal k/kk/k' confusion or m/b n/d confusion. Good thing I have a good sense of humor and I can laugh at my continual catastrophic failures :D
The other thing that I find hard about the language is the large variety of small words. It's like there are thousands of words that all sound almost identical, and they're so short that by the time my brain figures out which word has been said, the speaker is like 5 words later in the sentence.
Quote:
I believe 君 = 자네, though I don't know the connotations the word has. |
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I thought it was "neo" (N + the vowel that looks like -|... pronounced like "naw" or "nuh" sorta. ) I think "na" is "I", and "neo" is "you." But I could have those wrong. I get all the na, na-eh, ne, ne-ga, ni-ga, ne-geh, etc. all mixed up, because they often sound the same to me (in songs).
I think formally, it's "cheo" for "I", isn't it? And then "my" is "che" because it's "cheo" + "ui" (which is pronounced "eh") and it contracts to cheo+eh = cheh... right? I don't even remember, it's been a few years. I just remember learning "cheh ireum-eun [name] imnida" in the formal FSI book. But I've never ever heard anyone speak that way IRL, so I just ignored the formal stuff.
Edited by IronFist on 31 January 2010 at 4:35am
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| ericspinelli Diglot Senior Member Japan Joined 5782 days ago 249 posts - 493 votes Speaks: English*, Japanese Studies: Korean, Italian
| Message 19 of 37 31 January 2010 at 5:25am | IP Logged |
My dictionary gives both 너 and 자네 pretty much the same definition, though I still don't know which is used more often or in what contexts.
너 - (同僚や目下の者に対して)君;貴君 (To equals or people below you, "you")
자네 - 目下の者や親しい間柄に対する第二人称代名 詞:君;お前;あんた。(Second person pronoun for people below you or close relationships)
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| Warp3 Senior Member United States forum_posts.asp?TID= Joined 5534 days ago 1419 posts - 1766 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Spanish, Korean, Japanese
| Message 20 of 37 31 January 2010 at 6:21am | IP Logged |
IronFist wrote:
I thought it was "neo" (N + the vowel that looks like -|... pronounced like "naw" or "nuh" sorta. ) I think "na" is "I", and "neo" is "you." But I could have those wrong. I get all the na, na-eh, ne, ne-ga, ni-ga, ne-geh, etc. all mixed up, because they often sound the same to me (in songs).
I think formally, it's "cheo" for "I", isn't it? And then "my" is "che" because it's "cheo" + "ui" (which is pronounced "eh") and it contracts to cheo+eh = cheh... right? I don't even remember, it's been a few years. I just remember learning "cheh ireum-eun [name] imnida" in the formal FSI book. But I've never ever heard anyone speak that way IRL, so I just ignored the formal stuff. |
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Correct.
I (informal) = 나 (내 if using the 가 subject marker)
I (humble) = 저 (제 if using the 가 subject marker)
You (informal) = 너 (네 if using the 가 subject marker)
My (informal) = 내 (contraction of 나의)
My (humble) = 제 (contraction of 저의)
Your (informal) = 네 (contraction of 너의)
You (formal) is *technically* 당신 but I've seen it noted multiple times that this word is only used in very specific scenarios and is better off simply avoided altogether. The preferred method is either name+씨 or title+님 or something generic like 선생님 (which is usually translated as "teacher" but is really more like a non-gender specific version of the English "Sir"). FWIW, 선생님 is also what Pimsleur teaches as the "formal you" form.
Since you asked about Pimsleur previously, I should also note that they do not teach the informal pronoun forms at all, only the humble/formal ones (which does make sense since they don't teach the base speech level which is where you'd be more likely to use those). That said, though, they also teach most of the phrases without using the pronouns at all unless they are explicitly needed (which as I noted above is how Korean is commonly spoken).
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| IronFist Senior Member United States Joined 6436 days ago 663 posts - 941 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Japanese, Korean
| Message 21 of 37 31 January 2010 at 6:51am | IP Logged |
Cool, thanks, you two :)
I've never even heard of 자네 before.
I've seen books that say to use "sunsaeng-nim" as a "you," but I always assumed it was a super formal thing since that's the word I learned for "teacher."
So Pimsleur Korean only teaches the formal pronouns? Hmm. I remember it (the 30 lesson program) uses the informal -yo verb ending (as opposed to -mnida). Would you ever use the formal pronouns with the informal verb endings? Like "che ireum-eun [name] ieyo"? That sounds funny to me. Kind of like saying "watashi no namae wa [name] da" would in Japanese.
But I remember the 10 lesson Pimsleur program teaching the formal verb endings.
Edited by IronFist on 31 January 2010 at 6:57am
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| Warp3 Senior Member United States forum_posts.asp?TID= Joined 5534 days ago 1419 posts - 1766 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Spanish, Korean, Japanese
| Message 22 of 37 31 January 2010 at 4:53pm | IP Logged |
Yeah, I had never heard of 자네 before, either.
Pimsleur does use the ~요 endings mostly, but while that is often referred to as an "informal" form, it is still considered one of the "polite" forms where humble/formal pronouns are not really out of place (in fact, most modern Korean phrase books I've seen use that same combination of humble/formal pronouns with the informal-polite speech level). The base (banmal) form (for example, 있어 instead of 있어요) is where you would be far more likely to see the informal pronouns appear (for example, Korean pop lyrics, which are usually written in banmal and thus use informal pronouns exclusively).
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| The Real CZ Senior Member United States Joined 5648 days ago 1069 posts - 1495 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Japanese, Korean
| Message 23 of 37 31 January 2010 at 5:11pm | IP Logged |
For 봐 to sound like 바, it's either a dialect (for example, the Busan dialect where the second vowel is on the only one pronounced,) or the sound is still 'too fast' for you.
My advice for distinguishing the consonants is learning more vocab and how they sound, and listening a lot. I had the same problems when I first started with Korean, where ㄱ,ㄲ; ㅂ,ㅃ;ㅈ,ㅉ;ㄷ,ㄸ all sounded the same to me.
As for ㄴ, at first, I thought it was 'nd' as in 'and'. ㅁ used to sound like 'mb' as in 'dumb***' for me.
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| IronFist Senior Member United States Joined 6436 days ago 663 posts - 941 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Japanese, Korean
| Message 24 of 37 01 February 2010 at 1:36am | IP Logged |
The Real CZ wrote:
For 봐 to sound like 바, it's either a dialect (for example, the Busan dialect where the second vowel is on the only one pronounced,) or the sound is still 'too fast' for you.
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If I upload a clip can you tell me which it is? :)
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