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German: Making sense of word order. | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| arkady Bilingual Diglot Groupie United States rightconditi Joined 5399 days ago 54 posts - 61 votes  Speaks: English*, Russian* Studies: German | Message 1 of 33 10 March 2010 at 4:59pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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I am at a point in Pimsleur where the word order is starting to boggle my mind. Why is it that some sentences have a perfectly logical word to word translation from English, while others do not.
For example the phrase: But tomorrow, I have a lot of work. becomes: Aber morgen, habe ich viel arbeit. Why 'habe ich' instead of 'ich habe'? I am also noticing that the time of day is very often placed in the least expected order. Do you have a lot of work today? becomes: Haben Sie heute viel Arbeit? (Why does that translate to: have you today a lot of work? odd, no?) answer. No, not today. becomes: Nein, heute nicht. (Translates more into no, today not) Three sentences where, at least for an English speaker, it just down right confusing. Hope I got the spelling right, writing it as I hear it. Edited by arkady on 10 March 2010 at 5:00pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Arekkusu Hexaglot Senior Member Canada bit.ly/qc_10_lec Joined 5380 days ago 3971 posts - 7747 votes Speaks: English, French*, GermanC1, Spanish, Japanese, Esperanto Studies: Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Estonian | Message 2 of 33 10 March 2010 at 5:24pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
This kind of inversion is common in Germanic languages -- there is an inversion because the time phrase came first. You will come across plenty of other such examples, I'm sure.
I'm not a native, but my linguistic background tells me that the basic word order in German has the verb at the very end (it moves up when it is conjugated and in a main clause) and the direct object will come right before it. In a subordinate clause, you'd get "dass Sie heute viel Arbeit haben" and haben moves up to form the question. It's quite common across languages for the direct object to be closer to the verb than other phrases such as time phrases.
nicht heute negates heute heute nicht negates the verb that isn't repeated. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| datsunking1 Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 5584 days ago 1014 posts - 1533 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: German, Russian, Dutch, French | Message 3 of 33 10 March 2010 at 5:29pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
With questions in German, the pronoun and verb are switched around to indicate it. "Koennen Sie?" = Can you? (formal) "Werden Sie?" = Will you? "Werde Ich?" = Will I? Ich werde = I will. (don't confuse werde with will, Ich will = I want) habe ich in a statement is both colloquial and gramatically correct, I believe the word order is flipped around to show the change in subject. (I know how this works but it's hard to explain.) If the sentences starts with a word that is NOT the subject, the verb must follow, which is then directly followed by the subject. I've also had several German speakers tell me that "habe ich" or "Ich hab'" in a statement is more of teen slang, thought to be "cool" much like how a teen would say, I've got 20 dollars in my pocket. Instead of I have 20 dollars. It helps a lot if you think just like a German would, and sooner or later, you will really catch on. Assimil German without Toil taught me everything you asked in less than 18 lessons, I still have 80+ more to go through too! Michel Thomas helps a lot with what you're asking also. Once you have a basic grammar understanding, It really does make sense and you'll really come to appreciate how beautiful this language really is. Direct translation may not make sense to you (or me hahaha) but if you think like a German speaker, it makes perfect sense. Best of luck to you!! I'm sure a more experienced speaker like Sprachprofi or Pyx can shed light on this, as they speak both English and German EXTREMELY well. P.S. Correct anything that I said if it was wrong :) -Jordan 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| spanishlearner Groupie France Joined 5453 days ago 51 posts - 81 votes Speaks: Spanish* | Message 4 of 33 10 March 2010 at 5:29pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
In German verbs come in second position. 'Aber morgen' counts as one unit. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
 jeff_lindqvist Diglot Moderator SwedenRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 6908 days ago 4250 posts - 5711 votes Speaks: Swedish*, English Studies: German, Spanish, Russian, Dutch, Mandarin, Esperanto, Irish, French Personal Language Map | Message 5 of 33 10 March 2010 at 6:11pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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That's the best explanation so far. (It also matches Swedish word order.)
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| Arekkusu Hexaglot Senior Member Canada bit.ly/qc_10_lec Joined 5380 days ago 3971 posts - 7747 votes Speaks: English, French*, GermanC1, Spanish, Japanese, Esperanto Studies: Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Estonian | Message 6 of 33 10 March 2010 at 6:29pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Although I'd posit that "aber" doesn't count as a position here. Otherwise, yes, the verb comes in second place.
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| Volte Tetraglot Senior Member Switzerland Joined 6438 days ago 4474 posts - 6726 votes Speaks: English*, Esperanto, German, Italian Studies: French, Finnish, Mandarin, Japanese | Message 7 of 33 10 March 2010 at 6:46pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
Yes. I was taught the rule about the verb being in the second position. Words like 'aber' were slotted into a special 'position zero'. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| arkady Bilingual Diglot Groupie United States rightconditi Joined 5399 days ago 54 posts - 61 votes Speaks: English*, Russian* Studies: German | Message 8 of 33 10 March 2010 at 7:20pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Verbs come 2nd, ok that is pretty simple. :)
What is the situation then, where the verb always comes last? All the basic introduction sentences have the familiar pattern. My best guess is that when there are two verbs, then the 2nd comes last - although there are exceptions to this too I found. For example: Would you like to eat today? Möchten Sie heute zu essen? So here the verb 'like' comes in first position, which it does in the case of a question, but the verb 'eat' is placed last. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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