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Is this feminine or backward Japanese? | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| IronFist Senior Member United States Joined 6436 days ago 663 posts - 941 votes  Speaks: English* Studies: Japanese, Korean | Message 1 of 10 11 January 2010 at 1:45am | IP Logged | ||
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I know that sometimes Japanese sentences can change word order without changing the meaning (since the particles identify the parts of speech...).
I was watching my other favorite Japanese gameshow today (besides Ninja Warrior) called "Unbeatable Banzuke" ("kinniku banzuke" in Japanese). Anyway, on the event called "Bamboo Derby 3" (an obstacle course that must be navigated while on stilts), after this guy fell and was disqualified, the hostess asked him: "Dou desu ka Bamboo Derby 3 wa?" (lit. "how was it, Bamboo Derby 3?" or "what did you think of the course?") I'm a little confused as to what she's asking. I know sometimes women put "wa" at the end of a sentence (as in Japanese feminine speech), but because "Bamboo Derby 3 wa dou desu ka?" would also make sense, I don't know if this is a case of wa being the subject marker and the sentence was just backward, or wa being a feminine speech ending? Any ideas? Thanks. Edited by IronFist on 11 January 2010 at 1:46am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| standtorise Diglot Newbie United States Joined 5432 days ago 12 posts - 13 votes Speaks: English*, Japanese Studies: French, Mandarin, Norwegian, Korean, Finnish | Message 2 of 10 11 January 2010 at 2:02am | IP Logged | ||
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It is quite common in spoken Japanese to use sentences in this format, but it should be avoided in formal writing. Like you said, you could look at it like "backward" Japanese, but from my experience with the language, this usage of the topic marker は after the verb is just a typical option for posing simple questions. Things such as 何ですか、これは？ can be used in tandem with the more textbook friendly これは何ですか？ pattern. I actually have found the reverse order structure to be more natural a lot of times in conversation.
Also, while you are correct in that わ is characterized as a feminine particle, remember that only applies to Tokyo and Kanto region. If you travel to Osaka or Kansai area, you will find that males use わ as a sentence softener quite regularly. Edited by standtorise on 11 January 2010 at 2:05am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Gusutafu Senior Member Sweden Joined 5520 days ago 655 posts - 1039 votes Speaks: Swedish* | Message 3 of 10 11 January 2010 at 3:07am | IP Logged | ||
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I would explain it as an afterthought. In Japanese (and some other East Asian languages) you can leave of words that are clear from context, hence it is perfectly normal to say things like "何ですか", lit. "how is?". However, it may happen that you realize that you were too terse, and add an explanatory "Bamboo Derby 3 は".
At least, that is the way I understand this. At the moment the structure has progressed towards becoming a construction in its own right. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Clintaroo Diglot Senior Member Australia Joined 6870 days ago 189 posts - 201 votes Speaks: English*, Japanese Studies: Tagalog, Indonesian | Message 4 of 10 11 January 2010 at 4:21am | IP Logged | ||
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Seems quite common to me. And the feminine ending you are referring to is probably わ and not は. As has been mentioned, you'll also hear things like 何これ？ or どう、今日のごはんは？ in conversation. I agree with Gusutafu in that it is something of an afterthought, but it sounds quite normal in conversation.
If you think about it, sometimes we may say things like this in English, at least here in Australia. I remember back in high school, some of my fellow students used to say to each other after a test, "so how was it, the test?", or "how was the test?", or "the test, how was it?" In the first example there is no need to say "the test", because from the context it should be understood that we are talking about the test. It is said almost as an afterthought. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| IronFist Senior Member United States Joined 6436 days ago 663 posts - 941 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Japanese, Korean | Message 5 of 10 11 January 2010 at 5:40am | IP Logged | ||
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Yeah, I guess to clarify I should've specified, I didn't know if she was saying this:
どうですか Bamboo Derby 3 わ? どうですか Bamboo Derby 3 は? Obviously they're both pronounced the same, but I didn't know which one I was hearing. I was just happy I understood a complete sentence :D So the consensus is that, even though it was a woman speaking, she was not using feminine speech and she was saying the second example up there?
I've heard that kind of thing in English sometimes, too. It's usually an afterthought, like I'll ask "how was it?" and then think "oh wait, I wasn't specific enough" and then add "...the test." I would just be afraid that if I said something like "何ですか、これは？" that people might think I'm trying to force English syntax onto Japanese. I've heard they don't like that. Mangajin (a magazine that teaches Japanese language and culture through comic (manga) examples) even had a column on that specific thing, referring to it as "if it's good enough for English, it's good enough for Japanese" (IIGEFEIGEFJ or something, lol) and said that it was something that lazy Japanese learners did. Edited by IronFist on 11 January 2010 at 5:44am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Gusutafu Senior Member Sweden Joined 5520 days ago 655 posts - 1039 votes Speaks: Swedish* | Message 6 of 10 11 January 2010 at 10:10am | IP Logged | ||
It is perhaps not a very elegant construction, but since it is so common, feel free to use it. I'm no expert here, but in my quite limited experience I would say it is more common among women. If you do use it, the construction, just watch the prosody. The way it is normally said makes it clear that there really is a comma there, and that the second part is a separate phrase, syntactically. If you somehow manage to say it without the commma, I suppose it may sound like a mistake. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| standtorise Diglot Newbie United States Joined 5432 days ago 12 posts - 13 votes Speaks: English*, Japanese Studies: French, Mandarin, Norwegian, Korean, Finnish | Message 7 of 10 11 January 2010 at 3:17pm | IP Logged | ||
Right, if you were to just read it with no breaks, it will sound a bit awkward. As far as it being a sentence structure more common with females, I have not taken any notice of that at all in the half year I have been studying in Japan. In fact, there was quite a funny bit on TV the other day that had nothing but men yelling "何じゃ、これ！" at a bunch of things. I would conclude it to be gender neutral, but I am no expert either, at least not yet ;) Edited by standtorise on 11 January 2010 at 3:18pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| wildweathel Newbie United States Joined 5562 days ago 32 posts - 71 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Esperanto, Japanese | Message 8 of 10 11 January 2010 at 6:35pm | IP Logged | ||
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は (topic marker) and わ (assertive particle) are distinguished by the fact that わ cannot directly follow a noun and は cannot directly follow a verb:
それは簡単なことだわ。 それは それだわ 見えるわ 見えるのは 2 persons have voted this message useful |
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