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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| William Camden Hexaglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 6271 days ago 1936 posts - 2333 votes  Speaks: English*, German, Spanish, Russian, Turkish, French | Message 33 of 48 02 August 2009 at 1:45pm | IP Logged | |||||
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In Istanbul, a Turkish friend once asked me about learning Spanish. I asked him if he had any Jewish friends, because they might be Ladino speakers and that was a language not far removed from Spanish. I don't think he knew any, though. Ladino seems in any case to be dying out, at least in Turkey.
I saw a periodical in Istanbul that was partly in Ladino. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| laban Triglot Groupie Israel Joined 5821 days ago 87 posts - 96 votes Speaks: Modern Hebrew*, English, Italian Studies: Norwegian, German | Message 34 of 48 02 August 2009 at 1:45pm | IP Logged | |||||
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cordelia0507 - hmmm...I wouldnt call Ladino the "2nd Yiddish", cause although it might be (I think) the 2nd biggest jewish language - it basically got nothing to do with Yiddish, and the culture represented by each, is even more different.
We call it here "broken Spanish" (freely translated) since its basically a messed up version of Spanish. well you could also say Yiddish is a messed up version of German :). p.s - are you implying jews like to debate ;) Edited by laban on 02 August 2009 at 1:47pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| patuco Diglot Moderator Gibraltar Joined 7014 days ago 3795 posts - 4268 votes Speaks: Spanish, English* Personal Language Map | Message 35 of 48 02 August 2009 at 3:15pm | IP Logged | |||||
It's hard not to forget when I see the "5 reports received about this user" under your name. As for forgiveness...
Fine, I'm not denying it, but the discussion of politics is not the point of this thread nor indeed this whole board. I've got to go and stoke the fire in my hut in Maseru now before it burns down. P.S. Sorry for the off-topic remarks. Perhaps I should muzzle myself...oh, wait, I can't! :) P.P.S. I remember seeing some Ladino once and thinking that it was quite easy to understand but it seemed "wrong" somehow. Edited by patuco on 02 August 2009 at 3:22pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| William Camden Hexaglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 6271 days ago 1936 posts - 2333 votes Speaks: English*, German, Spanish, Russian, Turkish, French | Message 36 of 48 02 August 2009 at 4:13pm | IP Logged | |||||
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I had a CD once with Medieval Jewish Spanish/Ladino songs. One or two had the main body of the song in Ladino, the refrain in Turkish. Written Ladino, in Roman letters, looks like a form of Spanish with a rather eccentric orthography.
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| J-Learner Senior Member Australia Joined 6029 days ago 556 posts - 636 votes Studies: Yiddish, English* Studies: Dutch | Message 37 of 48 03 August 2009 at 4:58am | IP Logged | |||||
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Ladino is not even the second most spoken Jewish language. Unfortunately,it won't last another 50 years as a language.
I also have some Ladino songs and they are rather nice. Very much like Spanish but a weird sound comes in every now and then. Yiddish is not broken whatsoever. I have seen it written that Yiddish is most like medieval Bavarian. Purists might like to say that dialects are not as good as standard or prestige dialects but they are all just as capable of communication as the next. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| krog Diglot Senior Member Austria Joined 6048 days ago 146 posts - 152 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: French, Latin | Message 38 of 48 06 August 2009 at 8:52pm | IP Logged | |||||
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French Yiddish infos from Claude Hagège, 'Halte à la mort des langues'; 2000, ISBN 2-
7381-0897-0 Once again, translation may not be top-notch... RENAISSANCE DU YIDICHE J'ai rappelé qu'à la fin de la Seconde Guerre mondiale, le yidiche était moribond, et pour cause. Quelle est donc cette langue qui ne veut pas vraiment mourir ? Vers le début du XIIIème siècle, les Juifs, fuyant, à la suite des Croisades, l'Italie septentroniale et la France, et abandonnant donc leurs parlers judéo-romans, avaient formé le yidiche sur la base d'un dialecte haut-allemand, mais en y joignant d'importantes strates d'hébreu rabbinique, c'est-à-dire d'hébreu et de judéo-araméen. Le yidiche fut bientôt le lieu d'une différenciation entre une branche occidentale et une orientale, cette dernière se subdivisant, elle-même, en trois groupes de dialectes : d'une part ceux d'Ukraine, Russie blanche et Roumanie, d'autre part ceux des pays baltes, enfin ceux du centre : Pologne, Galicie occidentale, Slovaquie orientale, Ruthénie. Les apports slaves ont donc enrichi encore le yidiche, déja rendu composite par ce croisement du Germanique et du sémitique. Les masses ne parlaient plus l'hébreu, mais elles vivaient d'une façon permanente à son contact. Il s'est ainsi réalisé une impressionante symbiose, visible non seulement dans les emprunts de vocabulaire même pour des notions très courantes, mais aussi dans le grammaire, les tournures de phrases, les expressions idiomatiques, les connotations et tout l'univers de pensée et de référence. Tel est le yidiche, étonnant mélange, qui parvient à exprimer profondément l'identité juive, mais le fait à partir d'une langue de Gentils. Le yidiche, que l'on dit en grave danger, semble vouloir prendre beaucoup de temps pour organiser sa mort. Selon J. Fishman, dans l'album des manchettes que l'on peut imaginer pour l'année 2050, le journal Jerusalem Post inclut l'annonce suivante : << Yidiche toujours moribond ! >>. Il existe aujourd'hui un théâtre yidiche à Tel-Aviv, des concerts et des lectures de poésies en yidiche, mais les spectateurs auraient rarement moins de 65 ans. Il en est de même des quelque deux cents écrivains et journalistes israéliens qui appartiennent aux diverses associations littéraires existant dans le pays. Les activités culturelles yidiches sont nombreuses en Israël, une pléiade de spécialistes, à l'Université hébraïque de Jérusalem, se consacrent au yidiche et le parleraient entre eux, de même qu'un bon nombre d'étudiants. Il est une matière enseignée dans les cinq universités et dans cinquante écoles (surtout reigieuses). On ne peut plus dire que le yidiche ne vive plus guère que dans les milieux juifs ultra orthodoxes d'Israël et des Etats-Unis. Dans ce dernier pays, le nombre d'enfants d'âge scolaire ne parlent que yidiche, à New York, serait plus important que dans les années 1920. La Compagnie des téléphones newyorkais aurait cautionné une publicité en yidiche recommandant aux usagers de ne pas encombrer les lignes en décrochant leur téléphone durant le sabbat ; et d'autre part, l'hôpital Beth Israel, à Manhattan, fournirait aux nouveaux entrants une liste d'informations écrite en yidiche. D'importantes activités culturelles en yidiche existent à New York. Certes, tout cela ne signifie pas que le yidiche soit redevenu, dans la vie quotidienne, une langue orale tout à fait courante ni utilisée sur une vaste échelle. Le tissu socioculturel qui sous-tendait l'usage vivant de cette langue avant 1939 a disparu. Mais une volonté existe de rendre une vie réelle au yidiche. Le XXIème siècle dira si cet embryon de renaissance annonçait un retour, ou si ce n'était qu'un rêve. THE RETURN OF YIDDISH I've mentioned that at the end of World War II, Yiddish was moribund - and we all know why. But what exactly is this language which refuses to go away? At the beginning of the 13th Century the Jews, fleeing France and northern Italy in the wake of the Crusades, abandoned the Judeo-Romance languages and developed Yiddish on the base of a High German dialect, admixing rabbinical Hebrew (that is to say, Hebrew and Judeo- Aramaic). Yiddish soon split into Western and Eastern branches: the Eastern branch splitting further into three groups of dialects: those of the Ukraine, Belorussia, and Romania; the Baltic branch; and the central group in Poland, western Galicia, eastern Slovakia, and Ruthenia. Yiddish, already a hybrid of semitic and Germanic, was thus further enriched by the Slavic languages. The mass of the people no longer spoke Hebrew, but lived in permanent contact with it. This symbiosis left its mark not just in terms of vocabulary, including the most current terminology, but also in grammar, turns of phrase, idiomatic expressions, connotations, and an entire universe of thought and reference. Such is Yiddish, an astonishing mixture, profoundly expressing the Jewish identity although developed from a language of Gentiles. Yiddish, said to be in terminal decline, refuses to give up the ghost. According to J. Fishman, one of the headlines of the year 2050 we could see in the Jerusalem Post might be: "Yiddish still dying!". Today, there is a Yiddish theatre in Tel-Aviv, concerts and poetry readings - although you'd seldom find an audience member younger than 65. There are even some 200 Israeli writers and journalists belonging to the diverse literary associations existing in that country. The cultural activities of Yiddish are numerous in Israel, a plethora of specialists, at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, devote themselves to Yiddish and speak it between themselves, as do a good number of students. It is on the curriculum of the five universities and in fifty schools (above all the religious ones). It has to be said that Yiddish has a tenuous existence - outside the milieux of the Ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel and the USA. In the States, the number of children of school-age, in New York, who speak only Yiddish, is now greater than it was in the 20s. The New York phone company is forced to issue a warning in Yiddish that users not unhook their phones during the Sabbath, to avoid blocking the network; and on the other hand, the Manhattan Beth Israel hospital will issue information to new entrants written in Yiddish. Significant cultural activity takes place through the medium of Yiddish in New York. Certainly, all of that doesn't mean that Yiddish has made a large-scale comeback as a day-to-day, spoken language. The socio-cultural fabric which supported this living usage before 1939 has vanished. But the will to really breathe life back into Yiddish exists. The 21st Century will see whether this embryonic rebirth announces a return, or if it proves to be nothing more than a dream. 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| J-Learner Senior Member Australia Joined 6029 days ago 556 posts - 636 votes Studies: Yiddish, English* Studies: Dutch | Message 39 of 48 07 August 2009 at 12:09pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Good post krog. I personally think that it can make a comeback. I'll do my best to contribute to this.
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| krog Diglot Senior Member Austria Joined 6048 days ago 146 posts - 152 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: French, Latin | Message 40 of 48 08 August 2009 at 6:08pm | IP Logged | |||||
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I have in my hands 'Jiddisch - Ein Lehr- und Lesebuch' by Jacob Allerhand (2002,
Mandelbaum Verlag Wien, ISBN 3-85476-055-8). I haven't had that much of a look at it yet, but it seems pretty good. These are the internet links listed in the book: http://www.hagalil.com/jidish/ http://www.jiddischkurs.org/ http://www.phil-fak.uni-duesseldorf.de/jiddisch/ http://www.haruth.com/Yiddish_Stuff.htm http://radio.sbs.com.au/language.php?language=Yiddish http://www.yiddishculture.org/ http://yiddish.haifa.ac.il/ http://www.judaicvilnius.com/en And an unrelated Yiddish anecdote: my (Austrian) girlfriend once went on holiday to Israel with her mother; they heard some Yiddish music on a bus radio and could understand the lot. Emboldened, they went to a Yiddish theatre and disdained the headsets for non-Yiddish speakers - and couldn't understand a word of the performance. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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