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My Mandarin and Malay Log | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log |  | |
| bluejay390 Senior Member United StatesRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 6221 days ago 227 posts - 259 votes  Speaks: English* Studies: Spanish, Mandarin, Japanese, Malay, Italian | Message 1 of 20 25 November 2007 at 11:18pm | IP Logged | |||||
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I have decided to start a log here on my progress in Mandarin and Malay.
Well, today I played a little Knuckles In China Land and worked on my Malay vocabulary. I listened to the Malay radio while doing this. I also watched some of the Malay movie Perawan (virgin). I went through Mandarin lesson 2 on this site (http://english.cri.cn/chinese2007/chinese/english/lesson02/ 2.html) and added the words to Anki (flashcard program). I also reviewed previous flashcards. Saya ada telah memutuskan memulakan log di sini lebih kurang kemajuan saya dengan bahasa Mandarin dan bahasa Melayu. Telaga, hari ini saya telah bermain Knuckles In China Land dan telah bekerja pada perbendaharaan kata bahasa Melayu. Saya telah mendengar radio bahasa Melayu. Saya telah melihat movie bahasa Melayu, Perawan, juga. Saya telah belajar bahasa Mandarin lesson 2 pada site ini (http://english.cri.cn/chinese2007/chinese/english/lesson02/ 2.html) dan telah menambah perkataan-perkataan ke Anki (program flashcard). Saya telah kajian semula flashcard-flashcard sebelumnya juga. Edited by bluejay390 on 27 December 2007 at 6:09pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| ryuukohito Bilingual Diglot Groupie Malaysia Joined 6179 days ago 89 posts - 98 votes Speaks: EnglishC2*, Malay* Studies: French, Japanese | Message 2 of 20 26 November 2007 at 2:00am | IP Logged | |||||
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I am a native speaker of the Malay language and I would be more than willing to help you, should you need the assistance. Do let me know if you're aiming to speak the Indonesian or Malaysian version of Malay though. (It's quite similar; what's different however is pronunciation, and regional differences as to the meanings of words. (E.g. in Malaysia, 'kota' carries with it the meaning of a 'feudal fortress', whilst in Indonesia it simply means 'city'.))
The Malay language is very simple. Plurals are made by duplicating the same word twice (e.g. the plural of 'book', from 'buku', is 'buku-buku'; let's not talk about 'gunung-ganang' and so on and so forth). Conjugations are few and far in between, and they denote actions (e.g. 'lari' (run) can become 'terlari' (accidentally ran), 'melarikan', to run along with/run away, etc.), rather than tenses. There are barely, if any, form of tenses. There are few counters to use as well. (E.g. 'sebiji epal' (one apple), 'sebuah kereta' (a car), 'sesikat pisang' (a bunch of bananas), etc.) And what's best (or worst, depending on which point you're looking from) about the colloquial form of Malay is that you can completely disregard nearly all forms of grammar. I will elaborate on this if you want me to. P/S: The Malay you wrote with was very good. Some minor corrections though -- the normal word for 'virgin' is 'anak dara'. (Literally: A 'virgin child'. Can also be 'maiden'.) 'Virginity' would simply be 'dara'. I will check the meaning of 'perawan' later. And oh, it's not 'kajian', but 'mengkaji'. Kajian means 'research, or studies'. Mengkaji means to 'analyze/scrutinize'. The proper word would most probably be mengulangkaji ('to study'). I hope I have been of help. Edited by ryuukohito on 26 November 2007 at 2:23am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| bluejay390 Senior Member United StatesRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 6221 days ago 227 posts - 259 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Spanish, Mandarin, Japanese, Malay, Italian | Message 3 of 20 26 November 2007 at 1:43pm | IP Logged | |||||
ryuukohito, thank you for your help. I am looking to be able to speak the Malaysian version of Malay.
I would love to hear more about this. Perawan was the name of the movie that I started to watch, and it was translated as virgin. It is possible that this was an Indonesian movie (I'm not sure what the Indonesian word for virgin is though). The site that I was watching this from had both Indonesian and Malay movies available. Thanks for the information and corrections! 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| ryuukohito Bilingual Diglot Groupie Malaysia Joined 6179 days ago 89 posts - 98 votes Speaks: EnglishC2*, Malay* Studies: French, Japanese | Message 4 of 20 27 November 2007 at 6:06am | IP Logged | |||||
Ahh, the Malaysian version of Malay! Very well then, I may be able to help you quite a fair bit. Local Accents I'd like to touch a bit on local accents. First of all, surprisingly, for a country this small there are numerous accents, all of which can be very varied or similar. None of these changes relate to grammar, only the choice of words used, but some can be quite incomprehensible, even for Malays themselves. (I'm informing you in advance so that that you will not become confused later if you encounter other accents.) In brief, these are the main accents: Kuala Lumpur (Johor-Riau) accent: A very town/city-ish accent. The marking feature is that any words ending in 'a' sounds more like an 'e'. (E.g. the 'u' in 'burger' or 'e' in inhaler'.) Many words are slurred, and contracted. (E.g. 'hendak' becomes 'nak', 'dekat' becomes 'kat', 'tidak' becomes 'tak, and in a full sentence, for example, if you would ask to another, "Don't you have that thing?", instead of "Kamu tidak ada ke benda itu?" the sentence becomes "Ko takde ke benda tu?" As you may see, 'kamu' becomes 'kau' which subsequently is pronounced as 'ko' (pronounced as the 'o' in 'code', but with an emphasis on the 'k'.) If you want to adopt a colloquial accent, I suggest this accent. Everyone understands this accent, but not everyone who uses this accent can understand other accents. Kelantanese: The accent (but more like a dialect, the way it is) comes from the state of Kelantan. It is notorious for being difficult for outsiders. Kelantanese Malays can also have a very difficult attitude towards those who do not speak their accent, and may even be a bit condescending. There are many, many verbal contractions in this accent, and they utilize a nearly different register too. (To compare, if you know Japanese it's something like the Kansai-ben dialect, which is markedly different from the Tokyo dialect.) There is a different prosody compared to 'normal' Malay pronunciation, whereas when the first word of the sentence is spoken with a high pitch that subsequently falls down to a rather 'whiny' plateau as the sentence ends. Terengganu: Quite nasal at times. Many words with 'n' become 'ng'. For example, 'ikan' (fish) is pronounced as 'ikang', and 'makan' (to eat) is pronounced as 'makang'. As the state of Terengganu and Kelantan are neighbours to each other, they share some similarities in terms of word choices. Like the Kelantanese accent, it also has a specific prosody. Northern Accents (usually Kedah, Perlis): Most vowels are vocalized properly. (E.g. 'saya' is pronounced 'saya' with a strong 'a' at the back.) Any word with an 'r' at the back has a strong 'q' sound. (E.g. 'telur' (egg) becomes 'telorq', and 'air' (water) becomes 'ayarq'.) There are a lot of contractions, and some words have different meanings. (E.g. 'segan' which means 'shy', comes to them as meaning 'not feeling like it'. For example, if you invite someone for dinner, and they reject your offer by saying, "Eh takpa, cik segan la..." it literally comes out as, "Eh, that's alright, I'm a bit embarrassed," but it actually means, "Nah, that's alright, I don't quite feel like it." If in writing, please do not adopt any of these regional accents, unless it's for comical effect or to emphasize on the regionality of a character. If you want, I may direct you to some blogs (with interesting/funny content) which utilizes very good Malay sentences. -------------------------------------------- On Grammar In actual colloquial speech, as I've said before, a lot of grammatical forms can be completely ignored. I had never noticed this (being a native speaker) until I started becoming interested in languages. (It's also interesting to know that if you speak in this simplistic colloquial manner you will be seen as being very, very proficient in the language, more so than if you spoke using perfect grammar -- which is quite unlike speaking in the English language, whereas if you spoke with good grammar that would mean you were very proficient.) So, first, on verbs. Almost all conjugations ('meng', 'ber', 'ke', etc) can be ignored. The most important conjugation is probably 'ter', and occasionally, 'ber' is used as a fixed word. (Examples, in English -> Proper -> Colloquial form.) "I'd like to eat/I want to eat." -> "Saya hendak makan." -> "Aku nak makan." "He is/seems hungry." -> "Dia kelaparan." -> "Dia tengah lapar." "He is taking a walk." -> "Dia sedang berjalan-jalan." -> "Dia tengah jalan." "She accidentally fell." -> "Dia terjatuh." -> "Dia terjatuh." (See, 'ter' is preserved here.) "The bosses? They are meeting with the clients in a certain conference room." -> "Bos-bos? Mereka sedang bertemu dengan klien-klien di sebuah bilik persidangan." -> "Bos? Diorang tengah jumpa klien-klien kat bilik konferens." (Literally, "Boss? They're meeting clients near conference room.) In essence, what is already a (comparatively) simple language is made even simpler in colloquial speech. (There is a HUGE tendency amongst young people these days to slur complete sentences, even.) As you may observe, some words also become sheer workhorses. 'Di' is always used substituted with 'kat' (from 'dekat'). This therefore makes the Malay language a really easy language for anyone to pick up, because the only uphill battle, and the only important thing really, is the acquisition of vocabulary; there are nothing such as tenses, articles, irregular verbs, conjugations, gender-sensitive words (and so on and so forth) to worry about. Here's another example of a colloquial speech pattern: If you want to say, "I would like to take a walk first; I will only have dinner after that," the proper (and literal) grammatical sentence would be, "Aku hendak keluar berjalan-jalan dahulu; aku hanya akan makan malam selepas itu." However, that sentence is extremely formal. A 'proper' colloquial sentence would be, "Aku nak keluar jalan (se)kejap, (le)pas tu baru aku makan." (The words in brackets can be omitted without losing any meaning in colloquial speech.) However, the literal translation of the previous colloquial sentence is actually: "I want to go walk for a while, then eat." Other Details Plurals are usually formed by doubling a word twice. (Examples) 'Books' -> 'buku-buku' 'People' -> 'orang-orang' 'Cars' -> 'Kereta-kereta' In colloquial speech one often uses the doubling form, but if it's not it's still perfectly understandable. "Whose books are these?" -> "Buku-buku di sini, siapa yang punya?" -> "Semua buku kat sini, sapa punya?" (Literally: All books here, whose?) There's a certain grammatical detail when it comes to some words in their plural form; they may have a slightly different second word. (Examples) "Mountains" -> "Gunung-ganang" "Hills" -> "Bukit-bukau" "Colourful" -> "Warna-warni" "Wood/logs" -> "Kayu-kayan" But, as usual, no one speaks like that; it's often, and only, used in writing. In colloquial speech just use 'bukit-bukit' or 'kayu-kayu", that's perfectly fine. --------------- Pronouns This is probably the only difficult part of Malay to master. Like Japanese, the level of respect one confers to another is a very important part of the Malay language. (However, the sentences are not conjugated to accommodate politeness, we only change the pronouns. And, unlike the English language, the Malay language has a lot of pronouns, the use of which is related to your status in seniority.) I will list some off the top of my head. 1st Person - When speaking to others, and referring to yourself. The equivalent of all words in this category is 'I' or 'we' in the English language. (Your own name) -- Very humble, and affectionate; used with senior members of the family (like your grandfather), with people you are very close to (your parents, for instance) and sweethearts. Girls use this very often with their boyfriends, and likewise too. Saya - Polite, humble; it is used this with elders and strangers or unknown people. Girlish girls use this to speak amongst themselves. Aku - Rough, equal status; males speak with their friends using this. It is used with friends, and people of equal status. Some females use it; especially the 30s-40s crowd when speaking with their female friends. Can be used with classmates of any gender, although if a girl uses it can be seen as quite manly and rough. Kami - 'We' or 'us'. Humble. A bit softer than kita. More often used in the North, or on television. Kita -- 'Us' also, but is used by girls mostly. The colloquial version is 'kitorang' (from 'kita orang' i.e. 'we people'). A girl can also use 'kita' to refer to herself personally even when not in a group, which is fine, but very girlish. Gua - Very, very, very rude. Usually used by gangsters, or when threatening someone. Although sometimes it is used for comical effect when talking with friends. Abang/Kakak - Literally, 'brother/sister'. It's exactly like the senpai/kouhai Japanese respect levels. If you are older than the other person you may choose to use these, or dispense with them if you feel it makes you feel too formal. Those lower in rank than you may use these titles to refer to you. (Other colloquial, regional versions: 'Cik', 'eden', etc.) Out of interest, I also include archaic versions of 1st person pronouns that mean 'I': 'hamba' (literally, 'slave'), 'beta' (only spoken by a king to his subjects), 'patik' (by high-ranking feudal lords to their master, usually the king), and so on. 2nd Person Awak -- Means 'you'. Very, very girlish; however, if you don't know the person and you need a softening pronoun, this is fine. (E.g. You find something, and ask, "Is this yours?" that is, "Ini awak punya ke?") Kamu -- The 2nd person version of 'kami'. (Colloquial is 'korang'.) Kau - Means 'you'. Rough, same feeling of usage as 'aku'. Lu - Very, very, very rude. Usually used by gangsters, or when threatening someone. Although sometimes it is used for comical effect when talking with friends. (Colloquial versions: 'Hampa' (you guys), 'hang' (you), etc.) 3rd Person Mereka: 'Them'. No feelings attached, suitable for all occasions except really informal ones. (Colloquial versions: 'Depa', 'diorang'.) (There are some more that I can't quite remember too.) ------------- So there, hope I've elaborated enough for the moment. If you have any questions on the Malay language, please feel free to ask, and if I can answer them, I will. I don't mind explaining. (The added advantage is that if there are other members who are interested in learning Malay in the future, they may look at the explanations in this thread as a source of reference.) Edited by ryuukohito on 28 November 2007 at 1:13am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| bluejay390 Senior Member United StatesRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 6221 days ago 227 posts - 259 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Spanish, Mandarin, Japanese, Malay, Italian | Message 5 of 20 29 November 2007 at 5:40pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Wow! Thank you so much ryuukohito! That was very helpful and interesting. :) If you wouldn't mind could you post some links to some blogs?
1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| ryuukohito Bilingual Diglot Groupie Malaysia Joined 6179 days ago 89 posts - 98 votes Speaks: EnglishC2*, Malay* Studies: French, Japanese | Message 6 of 20 30 November 2007 at 4:57am | IP Logged | |||||
Please try Googling up these blogs: 1. 'Semusim di Neraka'. (It may or may not be available currently, as the author seems to have a tendency to delete his posts, but without a doubt it has some of the best usage of the Malay language a learner could possibly emulate, and goes far beyond textbook-language but without using difficult vocabulary.) 2. 'Melayu Minimalis'. (Be aware however that this is a satirical website, that satirizes Malaysian culture, and it can be quite offensive (but without being profanity-laden)). 3. For an example of the use of the vulgar pronoun, try reading 'Blues Orang Jelebu'. 4. For an example of really, really colloquial language, please try reading 'Budu dan Belacan'. 5. Try also reading 'Carutan Sopan' for an example of the offensive but polite writing style. (It is funny that the literal translation of the blog's name is "Polite Profanities".) I must apologize for providing you only blogs that may be offensive, but I've observed that Malay-language blogs of offensive nature seem to be the most common around. Perhaps this is because Malays tend to be quite reserved when in person, and there are many with repressed feelings, so when people are gifted with the relative anonymity of the Internet, this brings out the worst in them. If you need me to check any of the sentences you've collected, do let me know. I'd be happy to help anytime. (I can completely assure you that if you can understand, and speak or write like in 'Budu dan Belacan' you would be deemed very fluent in colloquial Malay already. But never write like she does in proper writing!) Edited by ryuukohito on 01 December 2007 at 4:55am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| owshawng Senior Member United States Joined 6829 days ago 202 posts - 217 votes Speaks: English* | Message 7 of 20 30 November 2007 at 5:49am | IP Logged | |||||
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Bluejay, what are you using to learn Malay? What's it difficulty like compared to Mandarin.
If you live on the East coast there's a Malaysian restaurant chain called Penang's. I've been to a few of them and all the waiters speak Malay, Mandarin, or both. Good way to practice speaking plus the food is incredible. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| ryuukohito Bilingual Diglot Groupie Malaysia Joined 6179 days ago 89 posts - 98 votes Speaks: EnglishC2*, Malay* Studies: French, Japanese | Message 8 of 20 01 December 2007 at 5:22am | IP Logged | |||||
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owshawng,
Even though your question is directed towards Bluejay, I would like to provide my opinion as well. Although I must include a disclaimer beforehand: I have never before tinkered with Mandarin. (Therefore, my opinion may be wrong, so if anyone wishes to correct me, by all means, please do.) I know how difficult Mandarin is: what with the multitude of characters to memorize (and tone-pronunciations too), and the inherent complexity of classical text, all of which makes the task of acquiring fluency a rather hefty one. In comparison, there is little that is difficult about the Malay language. 1. Historically, a modified version of the Arabic script (called Jawi) was in use some centuries back, but that script has been gradually disposed of beginning many years back, such that we now utilize the 26 letters of the Roman alphabet exclusively; in fact, some Malaysians do not even know how to write in or read Jawi anymore. (In other words, there is no need to learn a separate phonetic writing system if you already know English.) 2. Knowing the ABCs of English would suffice. And even so, certain alphabets are not really in use, such as 'v'. (For instance, there is no word native to the Malay language I can immediately recall off that uses that alphabet.) 3. The Malay sentence order is exactly the same as in English, the only difference I've personally noted being that adjectives always come after, and not before, nouns. (E.g. 'red car', becomes 'kereta merah' (car red).) 4. Intonations are not a great feature of the Malay language. Pronunciation is very easy as well, because the English language has more sounds than Malay. (Although I have heard many non-native speakers stumble over the use of 'ng' in our language, such as in the word 'kebengangan' (frustration/anger).) Therefore one would be able to speak the language fairly quickly. 5. Like the Japanese language, the Malay language has many English loanwords too, all of which should be immediately identifiable to a foreigner because of their sound, and the fact that there are consistent rules to follow when borrowing words. (For example, 'situation' becomes 'situasi' and 'globalization' becomes 'globalisasi', 'technology' becomes 'teknologi', and so on and so forth.) Edited by ryuukohito on 01 December 2007 at 5:25am 1 person has voted this message useful |
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