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Immersion alone isn’t always the best w | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log |  | |
| An'ka Banan'ka Diglot Groupie United States Joined 6318 days ago 46 posts - 48 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Swedish, Russian | Message 1 of 8 04 November 2007 at 4:45pm | IP Logged |
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Now that I've returned from Russia and am enrolled in a typical Russian course (NOT immersion) where my teacher speaks both Russian and English, I realize that I know sooo much more Russian than I thought I knew! Yay-yays! Most of what I know is by default, though--from my boyfriend and friends and just being *cough* immersed in the country and not from the language immersion class itself. I really don't know the grammar so well. But it's so exciting and interesting for me now because I am now able to ask my teacher here the questions I wanted/needed to have answered and explained to me in English, like "WHY is the ending for [insert word] like this?" "WHY must [insert phrase] be like that?" "WHY is the genitive case used here but not there?" Immersion is awesome and I totally think it is a top necessity in learning a language in all aspects of the process, however, because Russian is so much different than English (non-Germanic/Anglo, intonation, the case system, etc.), it was hard for me as a beginner who only knew the alphabet, how to write, and a bundle of really bad cuss-words, to grasp the concept of how it really works. I really had no foundation of Russian at all in the beginning and my teachers were unable to explain the foundation of Russian in a way that I was able to understand. Some things just NEED to be explained in one's native language when a beginner, especially in a language that is such a different system than one is used to. Though, that being said, I suppose if I had gone to the Netherlands and attended a Dutch immersion program, it would have been (perhaps!) pretty simple for me since I already speak/know German fairly well. Or even if I had gone to any non-Slavic speaking country in Europe (except maybe Greece or where the Finno-Ugric language family is spoken-- Finland, Estonia, and Hungary), an immersion class would have been much more beneficial for me.
I did learn a lot of Russian, though, and am able to understand it pretty well and read and so forth. But speaking is a different story. What I did learn it was mainly just a TON of phrases and vocabulary I picked-up from said friends and just from living there for a long time and getting accustomed to how things sounded. However, if I needed to be creative(for lack of a better word) and come up with my own phrase (one that I didn't know by "default") or have a non-superficial, in-depth conversation, it was very difficult because the endings/case/gender I would use would basically always be wrong. But now I am in a "normal" class and I can say "Ohhhh!!! That's why it's said that way! Breakthrough!" And, now, because my Russian teacher here is able to answer the questions I lacked knowing when in Russia, my understanding of the way this language works is pretty damn clear and I am now learning the grammar and structure really fast and it's becoming *cough* actually kind of easy! I guess, immersion was good in the sense that I have good pronunciation, know how the intonation should sound, and know a lot of words and slang and random things. But as I stated before, most of it was learned just from living there and being around my Russian friends and boyfriend and people---not really from attending an "immersion class." I just think that a balance between having total immersion and having a standard, university-class-type-setting where the teacher is able to explain things in your native tongue, is the best way to learn for a beginner. And especially when the learner's native language is so vastly different than the language being learned. The obvious tip: If you are a beginner, screw the 3-hour immersion class and go out to a club or pub instead. I guarantee you will learn much more, among other things. Just don't get too drunk or else you'll forget much of what you learned the night before! ;))))) Then again, I could just be a retard and this theory/experience only applies to the way I need to learn... :))))) Edited by An'ka Banan'ka on 04 November 2007 at 4:46pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| solidsnake Diglot Senior Member China Joined 6984 days ago 469 posts - 488 votes  Speaks: English*, Mandarin | Message 2 of 8 04 November 2007 at 7:12pm | IP Logged |
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I personally think that going back to a class where you learn russian and have its grammar explained in english is going to slow you down immensely. The reason you know so much russian in the first place was because of the immersion where even if you didnt get "why" you were saying the things you did, your brain was forced to accept it as is and just say them for "survival" purposes. While you were doing immersion, you probably felt you knew nothing (because you didnt "get" why you were saying the things you were and just spouting off memorized pieces of language) but it was only after you returned you then realize..very normal)
Now you come back to your comfort zone of an english based classroom and satiate your need to understand the nuts and bolts of "why" a language works and pretty soon you'll be left with nothing but a knowledge of how to talk about russian in english. While the immersion method might seem like some idiot-savant approach of not really understanding these phrases that you internalized, it will give you the intuitive freedom to construct meaningful sentences composed of smaller chunks of language that don't really require any mechanic-oriented inner dialog. Studying target language grammar in native language may make you feel smart because you "get" it, but it will do next to nothing for your fluency in said language. .02 Edited by solidsnake on 04 November 2007 at 7:14pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| An'ka Banan'ka Diglot Groupie United States Joined 6318 days ago 46 posts - 48 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Swedish, Russian | Message 3 of 8 04 November 2007 at 9:06pm | IP Logged |
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Hmmm... I agree with you on your comment! I realize my feelings of not learning anything were more about feeling insecure (being outside my "comfort-zone") and somehow internally comparing myself to people who had been speaking Russian for their entire lives, etc. However, this goes along with the point I was trying to make (and failed to do so)..: I still think that having a class while you are "immersed" in the country (you are already going to be pretty much forced to speak the language in day-to-day life outside of class anyways) where you can ask specific questions and basic grammar material, can only be an added benefit and make one feel less . I think if I'd had a class like that while I was in Russia, I would've felt less insecure and "stupid" when speaking. Being told "No, that's incorrect" without knowing WHY, tended to make me withdraw more and more for awhile.
I guess I should make clear that, in my opinion, immersion alone is extremely important, but taking an immersion class is not particularly essential if you are already in the country where they speak the language you're trying to learn, especially if your native tongue is not well known there. Also, this is only what I think would work for me, not necessarily for anyone else. :)))) Edited by An'ka Banan'ka on 04 November 2007 at 9:09pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| William Camden Hexaglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 6215 days ago 1936 posts - 2333 votes Speaks: English*, German, Spanish, Russian, Turkish, French | Message 4 of 8 18 November 2007 at 1:26pm | IP Logged |
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Personally I don't think you can beat immersion as a way to developing or improving fluency. After a month in Turkey, my fluency in the language has advanced noticeably. It is all around me, and I am helped by the fact that nobody I regularly encounter is able to speak English. Edited by William Camden on 18 November 2007 at 1:38pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| An'ka Banan'ka Diglot Groupie United States Joined 6318 days ago 46 posts - 48 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Swedish, Russian | Message 5 of 8 18 November 2007 at 4:43pm | IP Logged |
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Oh I agree! But I was talking about taking an immersion CLASS. What I meant was that I think if I'd had a class where some things like grammar could've be explained to me (in a language i already understood) would have been just an added benefit--but not essential. I was saying that I hardly got anything out of the immersion class itself... basically everything I learned came from OUTSIDE the class. I actually ended up dropping the class a month or so in because it wasn't helping me at all. I think if I hadn't been a complete beginner in the language, than the class would've been more helpful, however it was not. But this is only MY opinion and experience.
Living in a country where one's native language is not commonly spoken anyways, why would one need to take an "immersion class" when you are already immersed in the country of interest? Edited by An'ka Banan'ka on 18 November 2007 at 4:46pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| William Camden Hexaglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 6215 days ago 1936 posts - 2333 votes Speaks: English*, German, Spanish, Russian, Turkish, French | Message 6 of 8 19 November 2007 at 2:24am | IP Logged |
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Immersion is in my view always good, preferably through a stay in a country where the relevant language is spoken. Immersion classes may or may not be a good thing. I think they work with some learners and not others, and I am not sure they are a good thing for a total beginner or near-beginner - the learner may simply be overwhelmed.
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| Taiga Diglot Groupie Australia Joined 6253 days ago 81 posts - 85 votes 5 sounds Speaks: English, Spanish Studies: Russian, Serbo-Croatian | Message 7 of 8 22 November 2007 at 6:16pm | IP Logged |
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Having been in both an immersion class and immersion in a country, I'll give you my 2 cents:
Immersion class can be very useful, if you understand the basic of the target language, OR, you already speak a language that is related to the target language. If you are a complete beginner, however, it's going to be really tough. STill, nothing can beat immerion in a country where the target language is spoken, especially where you don't find many people that speak your language. 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| William Camden Hexaglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 6215 days ago 1936 posts - 2333 votes Speaks: English*, German, Spanish, Russian, Turkish, French | Message 8 of 8 23 November 2007 at 2:49am | IP Logged |
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Psychology and willpower are important in language learning. I think you would have to be Mezzofanti to be exposed to immersion right from the start and not be overwhelmed, rejecting the language as unlearnable in the circumstances, a set of meaningless sounds. It is a sink or swim situation where most people would sink. I think most people need some prior basis in the language to even stand a chance with immersion.
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