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Latin, greek, other, 4 training the mind | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| Alkeides Senior Member Bhutan Joined 6150 days ago 636 posts - 644 votes  | Message 17 of 24 25 April 2009 at 7:12pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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| -Save-Ferris- Newbie United Kingdom Joined 5674 days ago 5 posts - 5 votes Speaks: English* Studies: French, Latin, Spanish | Message 18 of 24 15 May 2009 at 11:45pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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No you most definetly cannot just be "off" in translating Latin. It's such a precise language that you can't afford to make mistakes. So yeah if you're looking for a "logical" language definetly Latin. There's about one tiny thing I've experienced in my two years of doing it at school that has seemed completely pointless and that was probably more to do with the fact that I couldn't be bothered learning it as opposed to it being stupid.
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 Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6705 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 19 of 24 16 May 2009 at 11:39am | IP Logged | ||||||||
Translating into errorridden Latin is only self correcting if you are made aware of the errors (and of their relative severity). But even even then it is only partly true. The problem is that students of Latin don't see the speech of ordinary people, they primarily study the litterary language of the day (this distinction is not too clearcut in English, but it resembles the situation in French, where you speak something quite different from what you write). This litterary language uses the endings extensively to mark the roles of the elements in a structure with a relatively free word order where you even can split a phrase almost at will, - change one element and the structure tumbles. On top of that Latin uses structures based on non-finite verbs much more than for instance English, which make it feel more sompact than it really is. Combine that with a penchant for long convoluted sentences and Anglophones would run out of breath if they had to talk that way. But I daresay that Marcus and Tullia in the street would too, and I don't think an error or too in their daily talk would rock the boat any more than an occasional error in plain English. And Latin grammar not particularly logical, which is one of the factors that make making complicated sentences complicated. Edited by Iversen on 16 May 2009 at 11:50am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Rout Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 5714 days ago 326 posts - 417 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Spanish Studies: Hindi | Message 20 of 24 17 May 2009 at 5:00am | IP Logged | ||||||||
I think a lot of people study several languages because each gives them an insight and perspective different from their own. I never could comprehend someone saying "yes, that's a very logical language." Does that mean it's the most uniform and has the least exceptions or it simply agrees with their own logic? Every human language is logical, e.g. Chinese has a limited number of sounds so it uses tones for distinction and has zero conjugation and zero exceptions. If it's inflection with pinpoint description you seek then go after an American Indian language Hopi, Blackfoot, Nahua, etc. If you want to improve your English then study English in all its forms (old, middle, etc.) and the works of Shakespeare, Chaucer, etc. The Greek and Roman ethical thought of the Stoic and Epicurean schools have had great influence on our culture and I think their languages would round out any good education. I think Professor Arguelles says he writes everyday in the four great etymological rivers: Ancient Chinese, Sanskrit, Latin and Arabic. Each necessitates a different way of thinking. I've heard of people who've studied Japanese,etc. and were never the same again. Out of those four, asking which is the most different could be analogous to saying which is the most illogical; negligent of 'correct' reasoning. I think if you want a challenge then go with ancient Chinese! Wealth of literature, concise in a way; very direct; no beating around the bush, relies little on mysticism (I think your other concern?), written concisely in that it's ideographic - or - Sanskrit: Wealth of literature, Indo-European so it's it's not totally alien, phonetic alphabet so it's written more 'logically' 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| minus273 Triglot Senior Member France Joined 5767 days ago 288 posts - 346 votes Speaks: Mandarin*, EnglishC2, French Studies: Ancient Greek, Tibetan | Message 21 of 24 25 May 2009 at 2:14pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
Written Chinese is natural for her first three hundred years. During much of the traditional China, Written Chinese is a competition of reference-throwing-in. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| minus273 Triglot Senior Member France Joined 5767 days ago 288 posts - 346 votes Speaks: Mandarin*, EnglishC2, French Studies: Ancient Greek, Tibetan | Message 22 of 24 25 May 2009 at 5:07pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
Ouch. Final unaspirated voiceless stop, and, tones WITH accent. Two royal pains. I'm also curious how a speak should pronounce a final ejective with a following initial glottal stop.
It may actually be reasonable. Edited by minus273 on 25 May 2009 at 5:08pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Alkeides Senior Member Bhutan Joined 6150 days ago 636 posts - 644 votes | Message 23 of 24 25 May 2009 at 5:38pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
I meant natural as opposed to distinctly invented languages like Esperanto or even highly codified "Classical" languages like Sanskrit. Literary Chinese literature might be based heavily on the Classical (Spring and Autumn period) language, but there never existed a grammatical tradition in Chinese parallel to that of the Indo-European classical languages in terms of syntax, rhetoric of course was quite developed. From what I understand, the development of the Literary Chinese language based on Classical models is similar to the tradition of Middle Egyptian; with Middle Egyptian models still being emulated despite the drift of the spoken language over two thousand years, although of course, depending on the work and the author, the degree to which Middle Egyptian was successfully modelled varied. As for final unaspirated voiceless stops, they are in some Chinese languages as well! And they aren't that uncommon globally. In some cases, I doubt it's possible to go completely unaspirated but the difference between them and more aspirated versions is clearly audible depending on your native language and degree of practice. Stress and tone can be differentiated relatively easy enough if stress is simply understood as an increase in amplitude of the sound, without any pitch component. Accent in most other languages conflates both of these variations. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| minus273 Triglot Senior Member France Joined 5767 days ago 288 posts - 346 votes Speaks: Mandarin*, EnglishC2, French Studies: Ancient Greek, Tibetan | Message 24 of 24 25 May 2009 at 6:25pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
You're obviously correct. I would still insist that Pseudo-Middle-Egyptian writers don't regard metonymy/metaphor as the only acceptable way to say common words, though.
In Chinese languages, a closed syllable is audible on grounds of short and abrupt vowel sound, and the little move of tongue position before the stop. The stop herself is unreleased and inaudible - well, I can do that maybe. I would certainly love a proposition to make Ithkuil THE world language. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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