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Scandinavian languages and their dialects | ||
Tags: Scandinavian Languages | Dialect | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| Tyr Senior Member Sweden Joined 5784 days ago 316 posts - 384 votes  Speaks: English* Studies: Swedish | Message 33 of 39 06 May 2009 at 11:17am | IP Logged | |||||
eh, where on Earth did I say the Welsh all speak Welsh? And Welsh is not at all kept alive artifically, there are areas where people speak Welsh perfectly naturally as their native language. Its modern spread into English speaking areas is artifical but not its core existance. Welsh speakers are not at all old, its everyone in such areas. A few years back I recall Big Brother had a Welsh contestant whose native language was Welsh (and another one who was nativly English speaking).
You completely miss the point. Wales was a full part of England for hundreds upon hundreds of years- yet Welsh still survives quite fine. Not thriving but certainly not battling for survival like languages in a similar situation on the continent are/were (rip). Even if Scandinavia were to join the UK tomorrow it would take a long, long time for people to stop speaking Scandinavian even in the cities. If English doesn't manage to even elimate all other languages in England then its not going to overwhelm languages in other countries; especially since its not trying to do so. Edited by Tyr on 06 May 2009 at 11:20am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Earle Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 6317 days ago 276 posts - 276 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Norwegian, Spanish | Message 34 of 39 08 May 2009 at 5:01am | IP Logged | |||||
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I almost hate to enter what appears to be Scandinavian family quarrel, but here are my two cents. I'm speaking as an American, fluent in German, who's visited Norway twice on widely separated visits - first in the mid 70s, and then in the late summer of 2007. On the first visit, I found myself in a hotel, at breakfast, in a nice hotel in Kristiansand where there were no servers who spoke either English or German. As I continued on up the Setesdal, I encountered a few English speakers, but my German was much more useful. When I reached Ulvik, I was able to volunteer as an interpreter of English/Norwegian menus for German tourists. On my recent visit, I was startled at the penetration of English. I hardly needed my intermediate Norwegian (although those occasions were memorable, like the rental auto return signs at Bergen airport only being in Norwegian and WiFi instruction cards in hotels likewise). I still found myself interpreting for German tourists, sometimes for hotel clerks speaking only Norwegian and English. Norway comes close to being institutionally bilingual, except, of course, for rural areas.
Now, Germany is an altogether different story. Traveling in Germany, Austria and Switzerland (to a lesser degree), I've always used my German extensively. I second what the German posters have already said. English penetration in German seems to go no further than the large cities and tourist areas. The idea of a Pan-Scandinavian language is intriguing, particularly since the languages are so much closer together than any other group I can think of. However, in the end, it would be an artificial construct with an enormous cost and to what purpose? It would only be for chauvinistic pride, in the end. I don't think it wold succeed because English is the more pragmatic investment, and not because I have native attachment to it. BTW, I'm far from anti-Scandinavian. I'll be spending the weekend helping move an elderly Norwegian-American friend, an internationally-known astrophysicist, to retirement housing. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| cordelia0507 Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5840 days ago 1473 posts - 2176 votes Speaks: Swedish* Studies: German, Russian | Message 35 of 39 08 May 2009 at 11:31am | IP Logged | |||||
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Earle, I just want to clarify that no serious "investment" of time is needed for us to learn a pan-scandinavian language at all. That is why this is such a good idea.
The investment would be in "creating" the language in the first place (agreeing on a spelling and choice of words and pronounciation where they differ). But that is s job for professional linguists. The effort in learning it would really be minimal for a Scandinavian native. People could do it at slow pace since there would be no strong sense of urgency. The other thing is a that this initiative could have a soft start. It wouldn't matter very much if people made mistakes because people would understand the original words anyway. On a level of difficulty, the experience would perhaps be similar to if somebody with a "deep" rural American "South" accent wanted to speak RP English with British spelling, speech patterns and vocabulary. (it was the only English example I could think of..) This would require an effort, but the person would still be able to make himself understood in his original language as he was learning so he could proceed at his own pace. It's not really learning a new language, it's just modifying the way that you speak and spell. I do this regularly when I communicate with Danes and Norwegians for work, out of courtesy. I type my emails in Swedish, but I avoid using words which I know are specific for Swedish. In cases where there can be confusion, I use the Norwegian or Danish word instead of the Swedish one. The idea with pan-Scandinavian language has come up before (last turn of century, approx. I think) but I think there was some concern about Swedish dominance and lack of serious incentives. Back then, German was the no 1 foreign language learnt by Scandinavians. But it did not permeate every facet of life in the way that English is today. It wouldn't surprise me at all if this idea comes up again. I'd be the first to support it. "Tusen takk.... Med venlig hilsen..." ;-) C 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| WFU03 Groupie Norway Joined 6677 days ago 62 posts - 70 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Norwegian, French | Message 36 of 39 08 May 2009 at 1:34pm | IP Logged | |||||
To truly do it the norwegian way, you have to abbreviate it to "mvh". It took me about 10 emails before I finally asked what "mvh" meant. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| tricoteuse Pentaglot Senior Member Norway littlang.blogspot.co Joined 6680 days ago 745 posts - 845 votes Speaks: Swedish*, Norwegian, EnglishC1, Russian, French Studies: Ukrainian, Bulgarian | Message 37 of 39 08 May 2009 at 2:43pm | IP Logged | |||||
Actually, I constantly hear everywhere that abbreviating it is kind of bad manners, a bit of "can't you even take the time to write it in full?". You should write it out all nicely, at least in Sweden. And I have never seen it abbreviated in Norway actually. And as to the pan-Scandinavian language question... I'm a bit hesitant about that. For me, each language has a very different feel to it, there is a big difference for me to read something in Swedish/Norwegian/Danish, and it really isn't only a question about spelling the words differently. I fear that the literary value of the language would be lost were a mixed version to be created. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Tyr Senior Member Sweden Joined 5784 days ago 316 posts - 384 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Swedish | Message 38 of 39 08 May 2009 at 2:48pm | IP Logged | |||||
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I don't think there ever will be such a language. The trend these days is very much towards making dialects independant as new languages rather than making bigger languages.
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| Earle Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 6317 days ago 276 posts - 276 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Norwegian, Spanish | Message 39 of 39 09 May 2009 at 12:36am | IP Logged | |||||
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Cordelia, let me clarify. I wasn't speaking of the time required for an individual to accommodate to "InterNord." What I meant to point out are the societal costs. There would have to be an enormous governmental effort in retooling schools, printing, etc., not to mention the PR costs, even if all the governments agreed to make such an effort. And, what would be the gain? A sense of pride in having concocted a common written language seems to me to be the sum total. Why not just settle on bokmål? :) BTW, I answered your question about Swiss German in the thread on where to learn German - 90% of them can switch to standard (heavily accented) German at will...
Mange Takk... :D 1 person has voted this message useful |
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