zerothinking Senior Member Australia Joined 6378 days ago 528 posts - 772 votes Speaks: English*
| Message 2 of 33 07 May 2009 at 10:44am | IP Logged |
Yeah. You hit it on the head. Language classes suck badly. They are inefficient,
cumbersome, slow-moving and just rubbish. What should happen is that language teacher
should be there to help if needed otherwise they get out of the way. They can be used
for corrections and to help explain anything the learner couldn't pick up on his own.
They should also be used to guide the learner through the process if he/she is new to
it.
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Zanna Triglot Newbie Poland Joined 5710 days ago 21 posts - 21 votes Speaks: Polish*, English, Spanish Studies: Catalan, French
| Message 3 of 33 07 May 2009 at 11:07am | IP Logged |
They aren't useless but going to classes itself doesn't make you know the language. Some of my friends have been studying German at school for 8-9 years and they have problems putting a sentence together. So it's not about going to class, just studying, and it simply means lots of systematic work.
Personally starting a class in Spanish gave me a lot, because I finally had opportunity to interact with other people, ask somebody competent about things I didn't understand and I was tested regularly. Only then, after a few lessons, I saw how much I already knew. It helps people to get to work, because you must be prepared for the class and it's a must you practice the language. You still have to study something more on your own. So, it's really a good thing especially on lower level. Of course it really depends on the teacher and his methods. Anyway, if it's not your passion or you have no motivation or you simply don't like the language, it's certainly a waste of time.
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Cainntear Pentaglot Senior Member Scotland linguafrankly.blogsp Joined 6017 days ago 4399 posts - 7687 votes Speaks: Lowland Scots, English*, French, Spanish, Scottish Gaelic Studies: Catalan, Italian, German, Irish, Welsh
| Message 4 of 33 07 May 2009 at 12:49pm | IP Logged |
zocurtis wrote:
I found that classroom learning for foreign languages just does not cut it for me. I took Spanish in college for a year and a half and couldn't speak a word of it until I started studying on my own. I find that alot of the classroom learning here in the western world is geared towards getting the study to know how the language works rather than actually getting the study to know how to use the language. I find it sad because alot of time is wasted and people even major in a foreign language for 4 years and afterward can't hold a basic conversation with a native of that language. |
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I agree that a lot of time is wasted, but I have to stress that not all that time is wasted.
While I would like classes to be more efficient, I'm sure you'll agree that what happened to you after school was a sort of "clicking into place" of what you'd memorised but not been able to understand.
The unfortunate thing is that a lot of people write off their classroom learning as useless and say that it was what they did after school that really taught them the language. They then start proposing to other learners to do only that, which is rarely the complete learning experience.
This is particularly the case with "immersive" classes. Most students in immersive classes have previously tried to learn using other methods, so very little that they do in class is actually new learning, but really just "activation" of what they should already know. The genuine new learner gets confused and left behind, because they just don't have the knowledge required to process what's going on.
zerothinking wrote:
What should happen is that language teacher
should be there to help if needed otherwise they get out of the way. |
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Then where is the student's direction going to come from? And how is the student going to get good examples of language use.
"Teacher as facilitator" has been proposed many times and every time people look at it, it's still the same "good learners" that succeed -- "good learners" are people that can teach themselves: other learners need taught.
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zerothinking Senior Member Australia Joined 6378 days ago 528 posts - 772 votes Speaks: English*
| Message 5 of 33 07 May 2009 at 2:30pm | IP Logged |
Cainntear wrote:
zerothinking wrote:
What should happen is that language teacher
should be there to help if needed otherwise they get out of the way. |
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Then where is the student's direction going to come from? And how is the student
going to get good examples of language use.
"Teacher as facilitator" has been proposed many times and every time people look at
it, it's still the same "good learners" that succeed -- "good learners" are people
that can teach themselves: other learners need taught. |
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Podcasts
Books
Grammar Books
Language learning books
Friends
TV/DVD/Shows
Internet Radio
Internet reading - Blogs, websites, wikipedia etc
The best way to learn a language is by yourself.
"good learners" are simply "learners who want to learn"
That's all there is to it.
The reason why the others are not seen as 'good learners' is because they don't want
to learn it so they need it to be forced down their throats. Unfortunately that's what
we are stuck with. 80% of the people (at uni and high school) don't care about
learning and if they could get away with it they would stop learning all together. Oh
and in this world we need proof of everything.
Basically in language classes you spend 80% of the time trying to prove what you
learned to the teacher and the board (through pointlessly taking test after test,
exams, papers, essays and other stupid things like presentation and colourful posters
lol) whereas in self-directed study you know what you have learned and you can spend
all of your time just learning.
Edited by zerothinking on 07 May 2009 at 2:31pm
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Cainntear Pentaglot Senior Member Scotland linguafrankly.blogsp Joined 6017 days ago 4399 posts - 7687 votes Speaks: Lowland Scots, English*, French, Spanish, Scottish Gaelic Studies: Catalan, Italian, German, Irish, Welsh
| Message 6 of 33 07 May 2009 at 4:32pm | IP Logged |
zerothinking wrote:
Grammar Books
Language learning books |
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These things are usually written by teachers as substitutes for teachers. The big difference between these and real teachers is that a book can't see that you're confused and explain it to you better when you don't understand. Just because there's a lot of bad teachers out there, don't think that teaching's worthless.
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The best way to learn a language is by yourself.
"good learners" are simply "learners who want to learn" |
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It doesn't matter how much you want to learn if you don't know how to, and the material isn't presented in a way you can relate to. Again, a teacher can adapt to help you in a way that "resources" for self-learners can't.
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The reason why the others are not seen as 'good learners' is because they don't want to learn it so they need it to be forced down their throats. |
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And what about the kids who cry because they don't understand? If they don't want to learn, why are they crying?
Stop blaming the students. You are lucky that something in your background has taught you to learn. I am lucky I had the parents I had, who taught me how to learn, how to experiment and how to draw theories out of experience. People who haven't had that experience need to be shown how to learn.
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SamD Triglot Senior Member United States Joined 6665 days ago 823 posts - 987 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, French Studies: Portuguese, Norwegian
| Message 7 of 33 07 May 2009 at 7:31pm | IP Logged |
If you learn how the language works, it should be easier for you to learn on your own. I really don't think classes are intended for you to get what you need without doing some work on your own. For example, a good Spanish course doesn't teach you Spanish as much as it teaches you how to teach yourself Spanish.
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jschnare Newbie Canada Joined 6285 days ago 17 posts - 17 votes Speaks: English* Studies: German
| Message 8 of 33 07 May 2009 at 8:46pm | IP Logged |
Hey,
I think learning in classrooms aren't as bad as most people say they are. I'm a German major at university. I must admit that most of the people in the class didn't really care about trying to do good. At my university you have to do a required 3-6 credit hours depending on what area you are in.
But getting back to what I was saying, I really like my German class, my teacher really helps to make you understand, he goes over things multiple times to make sure its stuck in there. I feel like I'm learning a lot, and besides the class I do try to learn some more of the grammar that hasn't been introduced yet.The main thing I think it helps with is motivation and like I said before he will answer questions if you don't understand unlike a book. I think it depends on the teacher and how the class is set up. My major program has a required year of study in Freiburg, so I imagine that will help a lot.
jschnare
Edited by jschnare on 07 May 2009 at 11:45pm
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