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Learning Modern Greek to improve Ancient | ||
Tags: Ancient Greek | Greek | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Learning Techniques, Methods & Strategies |  | |
| gregf Triglot Newbie Luxembourg Joined 3895 days ago 12 posts - 43 votes Speaks: English*, German, French Studies: Italian, Ancient Greek | Message 1 of 9 19 March 2014 at 11:01pm | IP Logged | ||
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Hello everyone. I'm probably somewhere in the intermediate stage of my Ancient Greek studies: after about a year and a half of fairly intensive home study (as intensive as one can get with professional and family commitments), I can now read things like the Gospels with relative ease, and work my way through Xenophon and Plato with a lot of help from a dictionary and bi-lingual text. I've worked through a few beginners books (most of Hansen and Quinn, all of Assimil, and a couple of 19th century readers), and I attended Christophe Rico's Polis summer program in Rome this summer (three weeks of spoken ancient Greek).
Now I've also become a convert to the massive input school of language learning, and I use lingq and LWT to work through texts and generate vocabulary that I import into Anki. I recently added Italian to my language schedule, if only because it's relatively easy for me, and because I have access to audio and video for the input. My question: would it make sense to start learning Modern Greek in order to more rapidly increase my Ancient Greek vocabulary? I know the proposition might sound strange, but after taking a look at the Modern Greek Assimil course, I was happily surprised at how familiar it looked: I could recognize at least 40 to 50 percent of the vocabulary, at least in the early lessons. Might it be possible to learn in the other direction as well: lots of Modern Greek input to help me at least partially grasp Ancient Greek terms? I'd like to be able to read everything in Greek some day. From Homer to Plato to Saint Paul to Cavafy. But is it too early to start with Modern? I had the same worries about reading too much Koine Greek, for example, but I really don't think it has affected by (in)ability to read proper Attic. Should I keep plugging away with my texts, or should I take the plunge for real live Greek? 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
 DavidStyles Octoglot Pro Member United Kingdom Joined 3884 days ago 82 posts - 179 votes  Speaks: English*, German, Italian, Spanish, Latin, French, Portuguese, Norwegian Studies: Mandarin, Russian, Swedish, Danish, Serbian, Arabic (Egyptian) Personal Language Map | Message 2 of 9 19 March 2014 at 11:39pm | IP Logged | ||
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I have only a fairly modest ability in Greek, but have found that the usefulness was one-way (ancient helped modern; modern didn't help ancient).
An important thing to remember is that an ancient Greek word or construction will generally be understood if used while speaking modern Greek (even if it may get a laugh), but a modern Greek word or construction may well have origins that are far from Greek, and so provide misleading information when going the other way. I have come to the conclusion that the best way to get better at ancient Greek is to study more ancient Greek. Edit to add: But by all means study both if you feel like it! Both are fun, and both have their charm :) Edited by DavidStyles on 19 March 2014 at 11:43pm 4 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| renaissancemedi Bilingual Triglot Senior Member Greece Joined 4301 days ago 941 posts - 1309 votes Speaks: Greek*, Ancient Greek*, EnglishC2 Studies: French, Russian, Turkish, Modern Hebrew | Message 3 of 9 20 March 2014 at 8:25am | IP Logged | ||
I also think so. Gregf, your goal to read greek through the ages is very noble, and I hope you make it happen! It can definitely be done and as time goes by it will get easier. I am so happy your open mind immediately saw the connections between modern and ancient greek, and you should always be looking for these similarities as you study. That will help you connect the dots, and explain many things in modern greek. However, I also think you should keep things separate in terms of studying. Apart from the similarities there are also differences, mainly in the syntax. Also, modern greek has many non greek words in everyday use, that wouldn't have been there before. Although the term "modern greek" covers several centuries and has its variations as well. So my advice is: study in parallel but separately, and after a while the pieces will all fall into place. Be cheerful and don't let anyone spoil that, because what you want to do is so much fun, and you should enjoy yourself. Καλή δύναμη! 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Lykeio Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4187 days ago 120 posts - 357 votes | Message 4 of 9 20 March 2014 at 11:39am | IP Logged | ||
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Philologist here. Firstly I'd say you don't sound "intermediate" in Greek. Intermediate
is roughly able to begin textual criticism and then starting to develop a good compositional style (the two are linked). Likewise at that level you should be able to easily handle Plato, Xenophon etc. I also think picking up modern Greek is a good idea. I don't think relying on it for vocabulary is necessarily the best idea but it can help in a pinch. The problem is the natural surviving words have often changed meaning in subtle or even not so subtle ways (it was always a living language), even where we have what linguistics refer to as tatsam words (e.g taking directly from anc Greek) you can't be sure the meanings have stayed the same. The grammar and syntaxis and even word formation are worlds apart, people always underestimate just how much is changed. So bear that in mind. Why study modern then? Well because it is a living form of the language, because in my experience many people have problems pronouncing the stress right in ancient Greek until they have it hammered into them via modern and because, most importantly, it's another form of the language. Variety helps a lot and its good to keep your mind working thoroughly, looking for etymological derivations and so on. I'd say wait until you hit a proper intermediate level and then pick it up bit by bit. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| alang Diglot Senior Member Canada Joined 7164 days ago 563 posts - 757 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish | Message 5 of 9 20 March 2014 at 5:52pm | IP Logged | ||
I am for the variety part, and would really would want to have Modern Greek speakers who delved into Ancient Greek and have done audio recordings for it. Odd thing is when the subject is brought up, other members seem to almost dismiss this idea, due to Modern Greek being different. I have a variety for Latin. Presumed Danish, English, French and Italian audio speakers. The Italian speakers I will base it on more, but I like to hear the differences. I believe if Modern Greek speakers who specialized on Ancient Greek released audio recordings, then members would jump at the chance if it happened. Regardless, of speakers I will still try to collect resources, that are praised. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Mork the Fiddle Senior Member United States Joined 3912 days ago 86 posts - 159 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Norwegian, Latin, Ancient Greek | Message 6 of 9 20 March 2014 at 8:01pm | IP Logged | ||
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Famed Troy excavator Heinrich Schliemann claimed he learned Ancient Greek vocabulary by reading Paul et Virginie in a Modern Greek translation. He said, "When I had finished this task I knew at least one half the Greek words the book contained; and after repeating the operation I knew them all, or nearly so, without having lost a single minute by being obliged to use a dictionary." *
Looking up that novel on Amazon, I see that its length seems to run well under 200 pages. That strikes me as rather short for vocabulary acquisition. But I'm thinking of the leviathans L-T calls for. Perhaps in this matter short was a virtue for Schliemann. Anyway, given Schliemann's success, and keeping in mind Lykeio's cautions, why not give it a try? * The source of this quote is probably already well-known to many of the members here who study Ancient Greek. "Heinrich Schliemann's method of language learning." http://www.language-learning-tips.com/17_Schliemanns_method. htm, accessed 20 March 2014. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| ScottScheule Diglot Senior Member United States scheule.blogspot.com Joined 5171 days ago 645 posts - 1176 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: Latin, Hungarian, Biblical Hebrew, Old English, Russian, Swedish, German, Italian, French | Message 7 of 9 20 March 2014 at 9:01pm | IP Logged | ||
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I've never seen any reason to believe that, if one's only goal is to learn Language A, it'll ever be more useful to study Language B than study Language A. Outside of improbable hypotheticals. This applies no matter how close Language B is to Language A.
Nothing here begins to convince me otherwise. Now, of course, if your goal is to know Modern Greek and Ancient Greek, it makes perfect sense to study both, and we can then intelligently discuss the best way to go about this. But if all you want is Ancient Greek, then every moment studying Modern Greek is a moment you could've been making comparatively more progress studying the actual target. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| gregf Triglot Newbie Luxembourg Joined 3895 days ago 12 posts - 43 votes Speaks: English*, German, French Studies: Italian, Ancient Greek | Message 8 of 9 20 March 2014 at 10:02pm | IP Logged | ||
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Thanks for your comments everyone. I suppose I'm looking for an excuse to study modern Greek, rather than continuing to grind away at texts and vocabulary in ancient Greek.
Moreover, Lykeio is certainly right to correct me when I said I was an intermediate student, considering that I still have problems with Xenophon and Plato. It's hard to admit that after so much study, I'm still very much at the beginning of a long, long journey. I like to think I'm good at language learning in general, but AG is a humbling experience. ;) The one thing that I don't think people have touched on from my original post, is the fact that there is such a greater possibility of exposure to modern Greek than there is to ancient. Audio, newspapers, movies, etc. I'd love to be able to sit back, say, and listen to several hours of Greek podcasts and pick up things with far less effort that I currently spend with my dictionaries and grammars and vocabulary lists. But I'd probably have to spend another year or so just getting up to speed in modern Greek in order to get there... so I should probably just spend that year with AG. Lykeio also touched on another sore spot for me: Greek composition. I've been dragging my feet about going through the active wave of the Assimil course (I write everything out, so it takes a lot longer), and I've got North and Hillard's Greek Prose Composition nicely printed out, waiting for me to start... I just.. can't ... seem ... to get started.. Perhaps if someone were to tell me how wonderfully helpful composition is, that would help motivate me. ;) 1 person has voted this message useful |
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