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Can speak fluently, but can’t understand! | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6599 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes  4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 9 of 24 25 March 2015 at 9:21pm | IP Logged | ||
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Well my preferred way to learn to understand a new dialect or related language is to listen a lot :)))
I second the recs above and also recommend GLOSS and lyricstraining. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| rdearman Senior Member United Kingdom rdearman.orgRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5238 days ago 881 posts - 1812 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Italian, French, Mandarin | Message 10 of 24 25 March 2015 at 9:44pm | IP Logged | ||
Is it Lyrics-training or lyric-straining. Because the second one sounds like another name for Karaoke. :) 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Teango Triglot Winner TAC 2010 & 2012 Senior Member United States teango.wordpress.comRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5558 days ago 2210 posts - 3734 votes Speaks: English*, German, Russian Studies: Hawaiian, French, Toki Pona | Message 11 of 24 25 March 2015 at 10:41pm | IP Logged | ||
Absolument! My wife and I are currently watching "Les Revenants", and it's a whole new ball game from listening to cute dialogues in Assimil. I don't know if it's just me, or this particular series, but the dialogue often seems to be really mumbled, or worse, hurled down from the heavens at the speed of summer lightning. I give a thumbs up to kanewai's suggestion for a follow-up Assimil course geared towards real contemporary colloquial French at native speed... :) Edited by Teango on 25 March 2015 at 10:44pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Expugnator Hexaglot Senior Member Brazil Joined 5168 days ago 3335 posts - 4349 votes Speaks: Portuguese*, Norwegian, French, English, Italian, Papiamento Studies: Mandarin, Georgian, Russian | Message 12 of 24 25 March 2015 at 10:43pm | IP Logged | ||
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I just recently (re)started learning Italian and I think I can transcribe phonetically most of what I hear. I even mentioned here that I was watching a film French and when they started speaking Italian I suddenly realized my comprehension had improved.
Apart from diglossia, French also has the issue of a complex phonology, which includes tons of vowels, the liaison and no post-tonic vowel or at most a neutral one. It really isn't a wall in the park. I still see improvements in my French comprehension now, but more in the point of figuring out the full sentence that's being said thanks to grasping a few words and taking from context what would usually be said in that situation. I also have trouble with English and Norwegian. It seems the more vowels, the worse. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| kanewai Triglot Senior Member United States justpaste.it/kanewai Joined 4891 days ago 1386 posts - 3054 votes Speaks: English*, French, Marshallese Studies: Italian, Spanish | Message 13 of 24 26 March 2015 at 12:15am | IP Logged | ||
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Here's the link for Lingvist. The 'memorize' section is
great, but the 'listening' section is invaluable for comprehending spoken French. For me it's perfect for the level I'm at (I can read Proust, but can't understand a word of Engrenages). Lingvist is still in the beta stage ... so free at the moment. Here's the first intermediate dialogue. It's a 4-minute radio broadcast, and you can listen as you follow the transcript. Ça lui manque A: Alors Manon, dans votre temps libre… Vous en avez un peu quand même ! M: Un peu. A: Qu’est-ce que vous faites ? Ou qu’est-ce que vous faisiez, parce que peut-être c’est différent maintenant que vous êtes étudiante à Marseille ? M: Oui. Alors, quand… Depuis que j’ai 6 ans… A: Oui ? M: … jusqu’à l’année dernière, je faisais de la danse. Et donc voilà… A: Vous avez commencé à 6 ans par quoi, alors ? M: J’ai commencé par de la danse classique, bon, pour les petits, hein ! C’est toujours… A: Oui, oui, oui. Avec le joli tutu et… M: Voilà. Exactement ! Et après, vers mes 8 ans, j’ai commencé le modern jazz. Donc toujours en alliant le classique. Et donc voilà. Et j’ai arrêté l’année dernière puisque… puisque j’ai dû venir à Marseille et que j’ai pas trouvé de studio de… de danse ici. A: Oui, parce que vous êtes du Var et… M: Voilà, je suis du Var. A: … c’était là-bas que vous aviez tout ça. M: Ouais. A: C’était… quoi ? C’était une même prof qui faisait les cours… enfin de… Non, vous avez pas continué le classique, en fait. Vous avez arrêté ? M: Non, j’ai arrêté le classique quand j’avais 11 ans. Oui, 11 ou 12 ans et… et je me suis mis entièrement à la modern jazz. Et après, ma… L’année dernière, je… j’ai commencé la salsa. A: Ah oui ? M: Tout ça, ouais. A: D’accord. Et alors, ça voulait dire quoi ? Combien d’heures par semaine ? Enfin, comment ça se passait ? M: Alors, au début donc, quand j’étais petite, c’était une ou deux heures par semaine. Puis après, plus l’âge augmentait, donc le niveau, on en était à trois, quatre heures par semaine, voire plus le weekend et surtout quand on approche le gala. A: Oui, alors ? M: Evidemment. Ah bah… A: Donc tous les ans, il y avait un gala ? M: Tous les ans, il y avait un gala. Donc moi qui suis très timide devant des… beaucoup de personnes… A: Vous avez le trac ? M: J’avais beaucoup le trac. Mais après quand on y est, c’est vrai qu’on n’y pense pas. On est dans la musique. Puis au fur et à mesure des années… A: On prend de l’assurance ? M: On prend de l’assurance, ouais. A: Oui, oui. D’accord. Parce que c’est un gala… quoi ? Dans un… enfin… ? Ça se passe où ? Ça se…? M: Ben, ça dépendait des années. Des fois, c’était dans des casinos. Des fois, dans le théâtre, dans un… A: Avec beaucoup de monde, alors ? M: Oh oui, il y avait assez de monde, beaucoup de monde, ouais. A: Tous les parents… M: Voilà. A: … les amis des parents, la famille, tout ça. M: Ouais, ouais. A: D’accord. Et alors, donc vous dites, bon, vous aviez le trac avant, puis une fois en scène… M: Ah, une fois en scène, de toute façon , la musique, elle nous emporte et… A: Oui. Vous oubliez… M: On oublie complètement qu’il y a des centaines de personnes devant vous, quoi. A: Oui. Vous avez jamais eu, je sais pas moi, de trous de mémoire, en plein milieu ? M: Plus… Plus quand j’étais petite, oui, bien sûr. Et c’est ça qui est mignon ! Tout le monde… tout le monde rigole, tout ça ! J’ai des vidéos, oui. A un moment, je reste plantée devant tout le monde parce que… A: Qu’est-ce que je dois faire ? M: …. j’ai complètement oublié ! C’est rigolo, mais bon après, on essaye de… de broder… quand … quand on… A: Oui, oui, on arrive à se récupérer. M: Voilà. A: Et ça se voit moins si on a un petit… M: Voilà. A: … un petit trou de mémoire, quoi. Et du coup, je suppose que vous aviez des tas de bonnes copines, quoi, en faisant… M: Oui, oui, oui. Beaucoup. Bon après, ça changeait d’année en année puisque j’ai changé aussi de… d’école de danse, plusieurs fois, trois fois. Et… Mais c’était bien de… de rencontrer… Puis on… on évolue aussi grâce aux autres danseuse, hein, finalement, donc… C’était intéressant. A: Ça doit vous manquer, là, non, cette année. M: Ça me manque beaucoup, ouais, cette année, ça m’a vraiment beaucoup manqué. A: Oui. C’est toujours un peu compliqué, quoi, quand on entreprend des études supérieures. Souvent on est obligé un peu de changer de… de style de vie parce qu’on n’est moins dans… Enfin, on est plus loin de chez soi, et tout ça. M: Et il faut choisir après… Bon bah, la danse, je pourrai toujours reprendre quand j’aurai pris mes marques… A: Oui. Vous avez remplacé par quelque chose, là, ou pas, ou pas du tout ? M: Non, non, non. Et le sport, c’est vrai que ça me manque énormément. C’est… A: Bah oui. M: J’ai un grand vide. Et du coup, je suis stressée. A: Oui, oui, oui. Bon il faut trouver une solution pour l’an prochain, alors ! M: Voilà. Exactement ! Exactement ! A: Parce que c’est vrai que ça fait partie de la vie, quand même, quand on est habitué comme vous. M: Voilà, quand on est habitué… A: Depuis l’âge de 6 ans. D’accord. Bah merci beaucoup. M: Bah de rien. 4 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Arnaud25 Diglot Senior Member France Joined 3844 days ago 129 posts - 235 votes Speaks: French*, English Studies: Russian | Message 14 of 24 26 March 2015 at 7:00am | IP Logged | ||
In fact, it's not a radio broadcast, it's an interview published by the blog France Bienvenue. Lingvist is doing (partly ?) the same thing as LingQ: recycling already existing content. But I recommand France Bienvenue to everyone, of course, it's a very good ressource. Edited by Arnaud25 on 26 March 2015 at 7:10am 4 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5432 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 15 of 24 26 March 2015 at 11:35am | IP Logged | ||
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I've always been intrigued by this idea that somehow one can speak a language fluently and yet not understand
the spoken language. This leads to the conclusion that it is possible to speak better than one can understand it. In my opinion, this doesn't make sense. People are mixing up two different things. First of all, in the case at hand, the OP can certainly understand the spoken language used in the learning methods, Pimsleur and Michel Thomas, the latter with his inimitable Polish accent. After using the methods, the OP claims to speak French fluently. This doesn't tell us much, but I'll assume that the level of proficiency is in the area of CEFR A2, maybe a B1. This is commendable but it's nothing like what is required to decode native-speed language. Secondly, when the OP claims to not understand a word of native-level speaking, the problem is actually a combination of decoding the spoken language, i.e. deciphering the sounds, and not having the required level of proficiency. Simply put, Michel Thomas and Pimsleur will not provide the proficiency necessary to follow a television program in the target language. The excellent advice given in this thread should go a long way to solving this problem. 7 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| eyðimörk Triglot Senior Member France goo.gl/aT4FY7 Joined 4101 days ago 490 posts - 1158 votes Speaks: Swedish*, English, French Studies: Breton, Italian | Message 16 of 24 26 March 2015 at 12:08pm | IP Logged | ||
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Since I said that one can fairly easily curate one's media intake to ease oneself into the more difficult aspects of the language, I suppose I'll give an example of how.
First off, one can use transcripts and enunciated standard French, such as the sources Stelle and Serpent recommended. If you have trouble with listening even at the beginner and intermediate stages of learner's materials, though, since your learning materials don't require a lot of listening, you might want to start with learner's listening materials such as Daily French Pod (or the literally hundreds of alternatives to that particular site), if you want audio, or FluentU, if you want video. In order to associate native sounds with the words you've learnt, you can also listen to audio books while following along with the written text. You can get free ones from LibriVox or Litterature audio. Once you are beyond the basic learner materials, though. You don't just throw yourself into a slangy comedy show or a high speed drama, not because it's French and you can't do that in French, but because it's not at your level — you wouldn't recommend someone who just finished a beginner's course in English and have trouble understanding a standard conversation to watch more African American Vernacular or Gilmore Girls! So, where does one start. My recommendation is usually to start with daily news shows or morning shows (clearly enunciated speech, lots and lots of cues from imagery) and documentaries or documentary-like shows (NB: Not documentaries about people living today and their conditions, because then you're far more likely to hear a lot of slang, muttering, incomplete sentences than even on the more difficult scripted television shows). It definitely doesn't have to be Secrets d'histoire (YouTube clip), but it's a good example of this type of television. Plus, it has subtitles and all the important facts are repeated two or three times so you if you didn't understand the first time, by the third you might. If you're comfortable following along those kinds of television shows, even if you don't understand everything, you can ramp up the difficulty by moving on to what the French call a magazine: thematic series with mini-documentaries or presentations, often with guests and interviewees who aren't scripted but who mostly still make an effort to put on their "public speaking" hat. Bonus: you'll learn lots of vocabularies from these types of shows. Example: 30 millions d'amis (YouTube clip) Moving on, you can watch game shows, subtitled drama series without too much slang and mumbling, or you can watch through every single season of a dubbed show that you already know well and love and really amp up your listening comprehension and enjoying something you already like, picking up "familiar" French vocabulary in the process. And then you introduce more and more slangy, mumbled, Tommy gun French. It seems more involved than it really is when typed out like this, but it's not so much something you think consciously about and you don't make a schedule for 100 hours on documentaries, followed by 100 hours of magazine TV, followed by 100 hours of game shows, etc., you simply stay aware of what you currently can keep up with and don't get ahead of yourself. Or, rather, if you do get ahead of yourself, you don't let yourself get discouraged because you know you're getting ahead of yourself... I'm watching an Italian TV show, for example, that is high speed for me and I lack some important vocabulary, but I can keep up with the main story and really want to know what happens next, so I keep watching and don't let myself feel bad about getting lost in the dialogue because I know this isn't what I "should" be watching right now if I wanted higher levels of comprehension. Lastly, don't get discouraged by what people are saying here about diglossia. Yes, you might have learnt "homme" and "ami" instead of "mec" and "pote", but I didn't learn "bloke" or "buddy" in English class (p.s. I'm sure they're common words, but words like mec, pote, nana etc. are not words anyone has ever used with me personally, maybe because I'm a foreigner but so are you, in the 20+ years I've travelled to France or in the 3 years I've lived here — heck, even the early 80s style punk who stopped me in the Paris metro to ask me for a light last time I was in the capital, about a decade ago, used "vous" and "mademoiselle" with me, and I was dressed like a metalhead from head to toe and hadn't given away my foreigner status by speaking yet). You'll be fine. Just go slowly. The real trouble with French is that it has a tendency to become one long string of syllables and it takes a lot of training listening and a fairly large vocabulary to parse it. Another issue is that there are a lot of very similar syllables making for a very large number of almost-homophones to the untrained ear or the still very much developing vocabulary. Edited by eyðimörk on 27 March 2015 at 7:29am 10 persons have voted this message useful |
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