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Latin America and PRC Language Sharing | ||
Tags: Latin America | Mandarin | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| 1e4e6 Octoglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4289 days ago 1013 posts - 1588 votes  Speaks: English*, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Norwegian, Dutch, Swedish, Italian Studies: German, Danish, Russian, Catalan | Message 1 of 24 30 March 2015 at 9:38pm | IP Logged |
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I was reading the newspaper right now, and in Clarín, I read an article about how
Mandarin is becoming very popular in Argentina: Hablar en chino es furor: hay 30% más de alumnos I was wondering if Latin America continue to aument their learning of Mandarin due to the increasingly strong economic ties between Latin America and the PRC†, if the language sharing of the Hispanophone world (#3 in the world of most spoken languages) and PRC (#1 in the world of most spoken languages), causes a dual effect of making both Spanish and Mandarin the new English after a few decades. The article says that Brazil are the #1 importer from the PRC in Latin America, but even so with UNASUR and other organisations, Brazil have at least acceptable Spanish skills for communication with the rest of Hispanoamerica. But I wonder, if PRC start implementing a policy of mandatory Spanish in their schooling systems instead of English, and Latin America a policy of Mandarin instead of English (although neither make English mandatory up to now), if Spanish and Mandarin can easily expand almost exponentially as the main language duo of at least the business world, and then into other aspects? The institute in the link is the CUI (Centro Universitario de Idiomas), and as it says, is linked to the UBA (Universidad de Buenos Aires), which if you are unfamiliar with Argentinian education, is the most prestigious university of the country, so this is not some small scale operation. Spanish and Mandarin are completely different, and Latin America and the PRC could not be more different in terms of culture, so that is why I had an idea that this dual Spanish-Mandarin, as in not one of either but both, as being a potential linguistic force within a few decades. Taking 2045 or whatever as a year, and assuming that PRC have something like 2,5 milliard people by then, and Latin America 1 milliard people. Assume that the education is such that PRC students learn Spanish from the beginning of primary school to at least the end of secondary school, potentially into university. Assume likewise for Latin American students and Mandarin, and that is minimum 12 years of Spanish or Mandarin for the other. That could mean 3,5 milliard people at least bilingual in both Spanish and Mandarin. I believe that this is different from the Cold War type of linguistic sharing, when Communists or countries that were allies of the USSR, such as pre-1973 Chile, Cuba, Nicaragua, etc. from Latin America and Spain would learn Russian either as interest or for business. In this case, there would be no Cold War divide with Spanish and Mandarin. The article also shows that the younger generation of Argentina, as in the future workforce, are especially interested in Mandarin: Mientras que hasta hace cinco años predominaban los alumnos de entre 35 y 45 años, hoy más del 40% se ubica entre los 18 y 30. A los jóvenes les interesa cada vez más. I have heard about "I want to learn English" stereotypes that apparently are recycled quite a bit. But if the young in Latin America they say, «¡Quiero aprender chino!», perhaps the effect is similar? †: Note that I use "PRC", the People's Republic of China only, for "China", so as not to confuse with ROC, or Taiwan, or the combination of both, just to be sure, because that is an otherwise controversial topic. Edited by 1e4e6 on 31 March 2015 at 12:40am 3 persons have voted this message useful | |
| Cavesa Triglot Senior Member Czech Republic Joined 5008 days ago 3277 posts - 6779 votes Speaks: Czech*, FrenchC2, EnglishC1 Studies: Spanish, German, Italian | Message 2 of 24 31 March 2015 at 3:32am | IP Logged |
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I don't think either of these countries is going to exchange English for each other's
languages in the obligatory educational mainstream but both languages will keep rising in the private education, like the example in the article shows. Both areas are on the rise economically and in the amount of content in the language on the internet (which tends to be a nice sign of cultural importance these days). But the IT, which is one of the most important tools everywhere, is still English based and English keeps being the language with which to communicate with majority of the world. While the PRC may be the most important or the second most important business partner for Argentina, is it more important than the rest of the world (usually using English as the lingua franca :-( ) combined? I'd say importance of both will rise and I would personally like to see rise of their importance in science as I think the anglophone centered science has some disadvantages for everyone. Both are, in my opinion bound to become more important in business all over the world but I'd say that we are unlikely to see the companies looking for people who know Mandarin or Spanish instead of English. But even today, it is becoming clearer and clearer that just knowing English is not enough and people to work with foreigners are expected to know English AND one more language. Of course, Argentina is likely to make Mandaring the foreign language no.2 much earlier than the countries of Central Europe, for obvious reasons. But I missed one very important piece of information in the article. How many of those learners succeed? After all, it is much easier for a Spanish native to learn English than Mandarin, isn't it? We were told some numbers showing steep rise in the amount of people who tell themselves "China is the future, I want to get paid more so I'll invest in a language course" and get enrolled in a beginner class. But how many get past the first few lessons or several semesters? How many get a HSK exam of higher level? 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4706 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 3 of 24 31 March 2015 at 3:43am | IP Logged |
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As much as I hope that language diversity spreads across the world, I don't think that
will lead to the diminishing of the value of English - it has become so important that the current age really is driven by English - even here in Chengde there are plenty of schools and kindergartens that teach children English even though there are no foreigners here at all. If the educational results of other foreign languages improve, it will be in addition to English, never replacing it, and I think that is the way to go. As someone who wasn't born a native English speaker, but learned it from a very young age, I can say that English has definitely opened doors for me. And that's not just because I am Dutch but because my experience abroad has helped me to understand Anglophone culture much better than the average English learner, who sees this language as a means to an end. Don't forget, English speakers have a culture of their own that needs to be understood, and the Globish that is spoken across the world does not necessarily equate to the English spoken in Britain or the US. Or for that matter in other Anglophone countries such as Canada or New Zealand. 5 persons have voted this message useful | |
| 1e4e6 Octoglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4289 days ago 1013 posts - 1588 votes Speaks: English*, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Norwegian, Dutch, Swedish, Italian Studies: German, Danish, Russian, Catalan | Message 4 of 24 31 March 2015 at 3:54am | IP Logged |
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That would be interesting to see what their higher level scores would be when they sit
those exams. I suppose that since Mandarin is only recently popular, not many have reached that level yet, of those that continue in those classes. I watch, in addition to RTVE and Spain-based news, a lot of Latin American news such as Telesur, Todo Noticias, C5N, and if I had to give a general idea, the PRC are extremely important to the economies of all Latin American countries, and Spain to a certain extent. Russia are actually very important as well; in this manner I would rate Russia just under PRC in terms of investment and importance to the economies of Latin America. One important message from, I believe the finance or trade minister of Argentina, was that PRC (and Russia likewise), unlike the USA or UK, treat them as equals. I understand this as he meant, with no imperialistic overtones or tricks, i.e. "You trade with me, I trade with you, but I get 60% of the deal and you 40% and you just shut up and take it". In terms of the Argentine economy: Las perspectivas económicas son positivas y alientan el interés. En febrero, la presidenta Cristina Fernández firmó acuerdos de “alianza estratégica” con Beijing. Allí, se alentó a las empresas chinas a invertir en sectores como infraestructura, minería, petróleo, potasio y litio. If you keep up with the current President of Argentina on her YouTube channel, she has a hell of a lot of video postings with yDng4qpg">meetings with Xi Jinping and top PRC officials. You can also see on the YouTube sidebar that half of the related videos are Argentina-PRC trade official visits and meetings. That looks quite encouraging for me. Edited by 1e4e6 on 31 March 2015 at 3:55am 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4706 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 5 of 24 31 March 2015 at 4:00am | IP Logged |
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The Dutch also trade very heavily with the Chinese and the Russians, but those languages
haven't yet caught on here. Russian is marginal in the educational system (although it has official status exam-wise) and Chinese has only become popular recently, but is taught in a few elite schools across the country. The Dutch prime minister also visits China. It doesn't mean anything. Now that China has more money trading with them is the new fad, but the fact almost our entire system of knowledge is built on anglophone materials simply doesn't help. The learning of English is always going to outstrip that industry. Edited by tarvos on 31 March 2015 at 4:00am 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| 1e4e6 Octoglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4289 days ago 1013 posts - 1588 votes Speaks: English*, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Norwegian, Dutch, Swedish, Italian Studies: German, Danish, Russian, Catalan | Message 6 of 24 31 March 2015 at 4:32am | IP Logged |
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I suppose that a major difference is the reliance on PRC and Russia by Latin America
in terms of not only economic issues, but military and geopolitical terms. This is probably lacking in most EU countries, as there seems to be some EU/USA/Canada/Aus/NZ vs. Russia/PRC bloc-style tension. Recently, the President of Venezuela called on both PRC and Russia to support him in this manner. PRC and Russia also have a special bond that not only recently but in the past has supported Cuba, Nicaragua, Chile, Argentina, Uruguay, etc. militarily. I believe that the USSR helped Cuba and Chile by providing military aid and support in the 1960s and 1970s and to an extent continues to this day. If I remember correctly, the PRC support Nicaragua by building them the Nicaragua Canal to stop the monopoly of the Panama Canal, and I think that there is a notion that the PRC as a world military power would support Latin American countries such as Argentina. This is an extra factor that also I thought might determine the decisions of language learning in those countries. I am not sure how the Netherlands have their contracts with PRC, but like the PRC/Russia in the 1960s and 1970s supported the newly independent African countries in about every way possible, and this type of support seems to be what is happening to some extent nowadays with PRC and Latin America. PRC also have contracters to build up the infrastructure of Latin American countries. I am not s good at history, but I think that this would be something like the PRC's equivalent of the USA's Marshall Plan in the Western Bloc right after the Second World War. The article states certain things that it is true that I have heard about Mandarin recently, but I am not sure how deep the bond is in Western countres like the Netherlands, or the Czech Republic. For example, it is not only PRC products being imported as part of the trade agreement, but PRC are sending personnel in addition to their companies to open firms in Argentina, and they also require that more locals learn MAndarin to communicate with the PRC businesspeople. My guess is that the PRC in this particular instance would choose Mandarin to speak with native Hispanophones (the Argentinians). It seems thant neither want to use English for this purpose. Los que estudian carreras como licenciatura en Ciencias Económicas o Comercio Exterior interpretan que saber chino mejorará su carrera. Las chance de trabajar va en dos sentidos: en las empresas locales que apuntan al mercado chino, pero también en las firmas chinas que se instalan en la Argentina y necesitan personal que pueda tener discusiones fluidas con los ejecutivos asiáticos. Más allá de los negocios, China también representa un atractivo que se manifiesta incluso en las actividades culturales que desarrolla la nutrida comunidad que se instaló en Belgrano. The Netherlands would probably never ask PRC/Russia for military aid and form a military/geopolitical alliance with PRC/Russia given the NATO/EU policies and Ukraine's crisis right now. Brazil purchases its aircraft from Russia, cancelling their purchases with the USA last year. Chile, Argentina, and Uruguay (Cono Sur) and the progresssive goverments of Ecuador, Venezuela, Cuba, Nicaragua, Honduras, I think all have some sort of military/geopolitical alliances with the PRC (and also Russia) that most Western countries lack. If military influence is a factor for the spread of English, I suppose that it would be the same for Mandarin (or Spanish, if they have something related to military in addition to economy that the PRC want too). Latin American countries would probably prefer to buy a jet from PRC than the USA right now. The exceptions are most likely Colombia and Mexico, the few Latin American countries that seem to like the West more than the others. The purchasers of Argentine exports is 1) Brazil, then 2) PRC. The PRC also have offred to build Argentina a spaceship-base (not sure how to call it; it is like the NASA base in Cape Canaveral, Florida) in the south of Argentina: Es el segundo comprador de las exportaciones argentinas, detrás de Brasil. Promete inversiones millonarias y, ahora, hasta construye una base espacial en la Patagonia. China, el gigante político y económico, promete, también, oportunidades de trabajo. De ahí, el fenómeno: en los principales institutos que enseñan ese idioma en el país, la matrícula de estudiantes creció más de un 30% en relación al año pasado. Perhaps it means sometihng, perhaps not, but I was also listening to Argentinian radio and then RT en español, and they said that today the Ministro del Exterior (Foreign Secretary) of Argentina, Héctor Timmerman, asked on the PRC to help to open another case against the UK on the topic of the Falkland Islands (Malvinas). The PRC agreed. To me it also seems that the PRC seem to replace the position that the USA had in Latin America in terms of geostrategy. Not sure if it means anything in terms of linguistic exchange, but if English can do it, Spanish and Mandarin could do it, starting small at first. Edited by 1e4e6 on 31 March 2015 at 8:59am 3 persons have voted this message useful | |
| Cavesa Triglot Senior Member Czech Republic Joined 5008 days ago 3277 posts - 6779 votes Speaks: Czech*, FrenchC2, EnglishC1 Studies: Spanish, German, Italian | Message 7 of 24 31 March 2015 at 2:23pm | IP Logged |
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Yes, of course this is the race for the silver medal and it will keep being so for a
long time. Even though there will always be people who find another language than English easier and will succeed at it instead. It is the race for No.2 unless all the countries basically remove the most common opportunities to learn another foreign language than English (it is happening, every now and then a czech politician comes with the revolutionary idea to improve the population's English by not making children "waste time" on other languages. Well, I could write several paragraphs of why is it such a bad idea). And no language in the world is getting even close to the Holywood/internet/everything flood of English that bathes majority of the world's population somehow. But the situation in Europe is different from the rest of the world, so I'm not sure whether the Czech or Dutch exemple is the best one to draw from assumption for south america. In Europe, English is established really firmly and the number two tends to be a neighbouring large language of the particular country. Usually the number two is German, French, Spanish and at the eastern EU border Russian. After that, it's the rest of the big four usually and then everything else. But Argentina isn't likely to drop English (even though I don't believe the overall English proficiency is that high in the country, so "dropping" the language is a weird term) and doesn't lie next to Germany or France. Most neighbours already speak Spanish as well and Portuguese is really close to Spanish. So Mandarin is not an illogical choice, I'd say. The only question is how many of those learners will trully keep to it. I am not afraid for the chinese. They are already learning a very different language-English, they are used to the efforts and would just be adding a language with lots of similarities to English. If millions of chinese can learn English, they can learn another european language as well. But the Argentinians are taking a huge bite. And the path from such a sudden popularity to wider spread skills of useful level is long and doesn't depend only on the learners' dedication. It takes time before the market is saturated with passable quality teachers, before a good selection of courses and supplementary material with Spanish as the base language will be published to lead from zero to the desired level (as many learners aren't that comfortable with monolingual or English based resources, I'd guess from what I know from here, but perhaps the Argentinians are more flexible) and so on. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |
| 1e4e6 Octoglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4289 days ago 1013 posts - 1588 votes Speaks: English*, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Norwegian, Dutch, Swedish, Italian Studies: German, Danish, Russian, Catalan | Message 8 of 24 31 March 2015 at 10:34pm | IP Logged |
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Good points made there, the PRC alread have some sort of advantage as if they learn
English (and it sseems to me that they learn English much more than Hispanophone countries, despite Spanish being way more similar to English than Mandarin), they have exposure to the Latin alphabet at least, which over a few years even, opens up many IE-languages. Regarding the geopolitical/linguistic ties, it is true that the European situation cannot be compared with Latin America. Latin America have openly, and recently even more strongly, advocated both the PRC and Russia, to help them in basically all ways. If I had to put it this way, I would bet that I could have more chance to sit C2 exams in all of my languages next week and pass than the Czech Republic say, "We want PRC and Russia to supply us with military technology, build military bases in our country, build their new entreprises in our country, send personnel into our country. And we also want American bases out of our country and for our children to learn Mandarin (and Russian)." This is essentially what the EU lack that Latin America want. I try to find the English profificney listings of EU and Latin America and compare them. A bit busy right now so I should come back and post it within couple hours. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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