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L2 pseudo-savantness | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| 1e4e6 Octoglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4289 days ago 1013 posts - 1588 votes  Speaks: English*, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Norwegian, Dutch, Swedish, Italian Studies: German, Danish, Russian, Catalan | Message 1 of 11 02 May 2015 at 11:11pm | IP Logged |
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I was unsure how to phrase the title, but what I menat is that in a few of my
languages, I find that there is the weird phenomenon that I have more problems talking and writing about simpler things than the more complicated things. I can read scientific articles and listen to university style lectures but a conversation between family members is a bit more difficult than it should be. An extreme example would be someone who can write a PhD-level thesis on evolutionary genetic drift during the existence of Gondwanaland and Laurasia or about supercritical carbon dioxide and its useful applications in energy generation, but would be unable to order a coffee in a café. I am at neither end, but somewhere in the middle, except that the more complicated stuff somehow seems a bit easier than the traditionally "easier" stuff. Does this happen to anyone often, and what is usually remedied for this? I had some classmates in university whose native language was not English and could do all of their academic stuff with more or less ease, but to ask them what time it is or how they were doing, and they had problems answering. I thought that it was a bit weird but never dwelled on the issue further. Edited by 1e4e6 on 02 May 2015 at 11:39pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| luke Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 7204 days ago 3133 posts - 4351 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: Esperanto, French | Message 2 of 11 02 May 2015 at 11:59pm | IP Logged |
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I think of this phenomenon is the result of learning primarily through technical or scholarly material mixed with
a bit of social phobia. There is also the situational specificity of small talk and ordering a doughnut skills. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |
| eyðimörk Triglot Senior Member France goo.gl/aT4FY7 Joined 4098 days ago 490 posts - 1158 votes Speaks: Swedish*, English, French Studies: Breton, Italian | Message 3 of 11 03 May 2015 at 12:22am | IP Logged |
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Maybe it's the languages I've dealt with, but I've always found scholarly texts in my own area of study to be the easiest reading. The jargon is usually quite transparent, and a general familiarity with the topic lets you fill quite large blanks. If you're very familiar with the topic, you can fill very big blanks if there's enough transparent jargon to go by.
One of the first things I ever watched/listened to in Italian was entry level university lectures and I had no problem keeping up. That's without a single formal Italian lesson (with a self-study course or class). At university (BA-MA level) we were expected to be able to work our way through articles written about our thesis topics in a number of foreign languages whether we knew how to say "hello" in those languages or not. I've always thought (because that's been my experience speaking to people who aren't language geeks) there was something of a consensus that academic texts are easier than even children's novels. Of course, you can also achieve a very limited "higher level" language by choosing not to learn the socialising bit, and practising your language skills by, say, writing about radioactivity. It's not like "basic small talk" magically appears in your head, after all. Even less so if small talk is conducted differently in your native language than in your L2. 4 persons have voted this message useful | |
| daegga Tetraglot Senior Member Austria lang-8.com/553301 Joined 4520 days ago 1076 posts - 1792 votes Speaks: German*, EnglishC2, Swedish, Norwegian Studies: Danish, French, Finnish, Icelandic | Message 4 of 11 03 May 2015 at 12:31am | IP Logged |
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I think I find it generally easier to discuss meaningful stuff than to have unnecessary conversations or exchanging pleasantries. Less of a language problem, more of a cultural one (like what is expected as an answer). English is an extreme case because I only use it for professional and academic communication (and the odd forum entry of course, but that's writing, that's different). I'm definitely more comfortable with this basic stuff in Norwegian because I've "lived the language", whereas English feels like an artificial means of communication much like Standard German. Edited by daegga on 03 May 2015 at 12:31am 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| Cavesa Triglot Senior Member Czech Republic Joined 5008 days ago 3277 posts - 6779 votes Speaks: Czech*, FrenchC2, EnglishC1 Studies: Spanish, German, Italian | Message 5 of 11 03 May 2015 at 9:54am | IP Logged |
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It's all about different goals and motivations. I know a lot of people who know
English just for their academic duties and I find it offensive to call it "pseudo- savantness". Yes, as soon as they teach in the language, they should get the active skills needed (I find them stupid for not doing so and instead shaming our university in front of foreigners). But a scientist who just needs to write articles in English may feel no need to learn smalltalk about holidays and hobbies. Considering this skillset wrong is just as arrogant, in my opinion, as judging someone's choice of target language or the fact that they prefer reading books over socializing with natives. Apart from that: Yes, it is an extremely common phenomenon. The world doesn't learn English because of warm feelings towards the language. No, they learn the skills they need for their jobs. And while I'd say this extreme situation (writing pages of scientific stuff without being able to properly order a coffee) is pretty English specific, I agree that lots of advanced stuff tend to be easier in foreign languages than some of the basic/intermediate issues. 6 persons have voted this message useful | |
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4706 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 6 of 11 03 May 2015 at 2:50pm | IP Logged |
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It depends on the vocabulary you get for free. It's much harder to guess these words in
Mandarin where it's not transparent, than in Italian where it is. I tend to have skill sets based on how I use languages in my life. I can use Mandarin very effectively in shops and restaurants for example, and I can have a lot of personal conversations, but complex meetings are way over my head. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |
| basica Senior Member Australia Joined 3535 days ago 157 posts - 269 votes Studies: Serbian | Message 7 of 11 03 May 2015 at 4:50pm | IP Logged |
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I think part of this has to do with passive/active skills and using the vocabulary you need. I work in an
academic environment so I often meet academics whose written English is impeccable but who speak it far less impressively. I think the main reason for this is probably lack of practice - when you type something up or write it down you have time to cover up mistakes by applying the rules you know without anyone noticing in the end product - speaking does not enable you to cover it up. The secondary aspect is simply needing to know only the vocabulary you use. For example I know a lot of technical vocabulary related to computing and maths because that is where my interests and work are focused. I have very little vocabulary related to biology or chemistry. For example two words I picked up which I guess would be rather rudimentary but nevertheless did not know of them till I watched a youtube video on something concerning evolution (and subsequently googled the meaning of the words) are "basal" and "clade". I suspect I am simply touching the tip of the iceberg in the amount of vocabulary I'd need to dig deeper into these topics. I just thought of another area where my vocab is lacking but might seem like something *everyone* should know: home maintenance. It was embarrassingly recent when I first learned the names for things like a flathead and phillip's head screwdriver. This is because I am not a home maintenance guy. The principle applies in reverse as well. You may not be able to make basic chit-chat or do touristy stuff because you never really used the vocabulary for that stuff much and have forgotten it or never learnt it. I'll use my mother as an example. She has relatively okay English skills. She can get things done day to day, watch tv and enjoy movies but if she reads a book it'll be in Serbian. Despite living over here for close to 3 decades, she doesn't know the words for things like body parts, most animals aside from say cats, dogs and then groupings like fish, lizards, birds etc and pretty much any "technical" vocabulary (from say something simple like hammers and spanners to computing vocabulary). I think this is relatively normal as vocabulary kinda exists like little islands. Some islands might seem like obvious places to go, but in our walk of life we may not really lose anything by not knowing them. For those with sophisticated vocabularies - they generally need it for work but they are probably not often in the position to ask about the weather or what food they want to buy. 3 persons have voted this message useful | |
| garyb Triglot Senior Member ScotlandRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5206 days ago 1468 posts - 2413 votes Speaks: English*, Italian, French Studies: Spanish | Message 8 of 11 04 May 2015 at 10:14am | IP Logged |
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I know the feeling: I can handle quite scientific or philosophical stuff in French but sometimes get stuck with basic usage in social or customer situations. I just see it as a consequence of not having immersion or a French-speaking peer group. If I went to a French-speaking country for a few months, these gaps would probably fill themselves in quickly enough.
2 persons have voted this message useful |
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