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Codified spelling of informal speech | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| schoenewaelder Diglot Senior Member Germany Joined 5562 days ago 759 posts - 1197 votes  Speaks: English*, French Studies: German, Spanish, Dutch | Message 1 of 8 09 May 2015 at 1:03pm | IP Logged |
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Why did the Dutch decide it was necessary to have specific spellings of the
unstressed pronunciations of personal pronouns and articles? (hij -> he, het -> 't, etc.) (Similar for French, thought it would be simpler to start with Dutch) Edited by schoenewaelder on 09 May 2015 at 1:03pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| Michel1020 Tetraglot Senior Member Belgium Joined 5019 days ago 365 posts - 559 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish, Dutch | Message 2 of 8 09 May 2015 at 5:56pm | IP Logged |
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Do you mean similar for English ? Did not - didn't ... but I don't see anything in french ?
I don't know why they do that. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |
| schoenewaelder Diglot Senior Member Germany Joined 5562 days ago 759 posts - 1197 votes Speaks: English*, French Studies: German, Spanish, Dutch | Message 3 of 8 09 May 2015 at 7:01pm | IP Logged |
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Good point, I'd forgotten about English. But "didn't" is amost a new word, whereas
"he" really is pretty similar to "hij", In French there's le -> l' and the insertion of "t" for verb inversion (y a-t-il?) to reflect spoken speech. 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| daegga Tetraglot Senior Member Austria lang-8.com/553301 Joined 4523 days ago 1076 posts - 1792 votes Speaks: German*, EnglishC2, Swedish, Norwegian Studies: Danish, French, Finnish, Icelandic | Message 4 of 8 09 May 2015 at 7:09pm | IP Logged |
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In Swedish you have for example en stad - staden, where the latter can also be written as "stan" because this is what most people are using in standard speech. Some day this might be the only official form. The same for verbs - "sa" vs "sade", both are allowed.
If written language stays the same forever, it might one day be too different from the spoken variant. Languages develop. How well can you read Middle English? In German you see a lot of "nen", especially in online discussion boards (resembling the spoken form of "einen"). This isn't standard, but if enough people decide to use it, it might become standard in the future. (but as long as the same people continue to use it as a replacement for "ein", even though this isn't a phenomenon of spoken language, they will only be regarded as fools) Edited by daegga on 09 May 2015 at 7:22pm 3 persons have voted this message useful | |
| Michel1020 Tetraglot Senior Member Belgium Joined 5019 days ago 365 posts - 559 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish, Dutch | Message 5 of 8 09 May 2015 at 8:03pm | IP Logged |
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What about
wie geht's --- wie geht es The dutch ze and zij are not 100% the same meaning - it is similar to using yo in Spanish or not using it. 't = het or does not = doesn't - there are no new word here it is 2 correct ways to write the same thing. For your french examples there are no alternative writings so this is how french is written. Words that take l' don't take le or la and words that take le or la don't take l'. It is very similar to the English a or an. The same for the french -t- either you use it because that is how french works or you don't use it in other cases because that is how french works in these other cases. There is no freedom here. Y a-t-il exist - y a-il does not exist. Edited by Michel1020 on 09 May 2015 at 8:12pm 3 persons have voted this message useful | |
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4709 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 6 of 8 10 May 2015 at 1:16am | IP Logged |
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Hij doesn't have an unstressed form (it remains "hij"). In writing 't is not used, except
for transcribing dialogue. The reason we do this is to accurately reflect how we speak rather than write formally because if we use the unstressed forms (fairly common) then this renders a certain nuance that is skipped by using the stressed form of the pronoun. Unstressing it renders stress on a different part of the sentence and can thus (sometimes subtly, sometimes not so) change the meaning. 4 persons have voted this message useful | |
| schoenewaelder Diglot Senior Member Germany Joined 5562 days ago 759 posts - 1197 votes Speaks: English*, French Studies: German, Spanish, Dutch | Message 7 of 8 10 May 2015 at 1:56pm | IP Logged |
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Thanks for the explanations. Sorry about the misinformation about "hij/he". Edited by schoenewaelder on 10 May 2015 at 1:56pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4709 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 8 of 8 11 May 2015 at 10:02am | IP Logged |
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Hè! is a word in Dutch by the way, usually expressing surprise or a lack of understanding
of some sort. Hé is an admonishment in the sense of 'hey, don't do that'. But you need the accents to indicate the pronunciation. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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