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Polyglot after 20? | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Polyglots |  | |
| Juаn Senior Member Colombia Joined 5344 days ago 727 posts - 1830 votes  Speaks: Spanish* | Message 41 of 57 25 August 2010 at 3:34pm | IP Logged | ||
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RagsToRich,
please define "older". What age are we talking about? Also, if one doesn't meet this "resistance" but rather learns languages with ease, does the benefit you speak of still accrue? Finally, does language-learning show diminishing returns? You speak of training your brain to do new things. Does learning your 12th language contribute anything in terms of mental health? Edited by Juаn on 25 August 2010 at 3:41pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| BiaHuda Triglot Groupie Vietnam Joined 5362 days ago 97 posts - 127 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, Vietnamese Studies: Cantonese | Message 42 of 57 27 August 2010 at 12:00am | IP Logged | ||
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I am not sure whether to get depressed or optimistic after reading this thread. I am not a polyglot but I have learned a couple of languages to quite a high level. I still encounter challenges from time to time, mostly with different regional vocabulary. In the case of Vietnamese I use this alot more than my native English. I don't have a choice because I live in an area with few native speakers. The point I am trying to make is that I didn't begin studying Vietnamese until I was forty years old, when a work assignment brought me to Vietnam. Granted, I am in a state of constant immersion so this may have contributed to fluency. I am glad that I hadn't heard that learning languages is nearly impossible after forty or I may not have bothered. I can say unequivocolly that this isn't true. I can also say that I am not some anomaly either.
There may be some truth to the the part about language learning offsetting dementia though. Perhaps that is why I haven't lost my marbles by now! That being said, I think I'll give Cantonese a go... 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| okjhum Pentaglot Groupie Sweden olle-kjellin.com Joined 5203 days ago 40 posts - 190 votes Speaks: Swedish*, Japanese, English, German, Russian Studies: Spanish, Polish, Greek | Message 43 of 57 27 August 2010 at 1:17pm | IP Logged | ||
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I too agree with RagsToRich and others who dismiss the age limit myth. I'm a linguist/phonetician and MD with a great interest in the brain, neuro-sciences, cognition, learning, memory, forgetting, speech, audiology, & what not :). Among other positions I worked for 6 exceptionally interesting yrs in a memory clinic with assessment and treatment of memory disorders, dementia, etc. So I too would contend that I know quite a lot about these matters.
To the best I can understand, there is no crucial, neurophysiological difference between language learning and the learning of any other skill. If there were indeed a "fading" process around puberty, isn't it illogical that we don't start earlier to get our driving licence or become skilled neurosurgeons or whatever? There is a direct neurophysiological truth in the saying that "practice makes perfect" - whenever you begin. Neuroplastic (anatomical!) changes in the brain due to learning and automatizing a new skill can be shown to arise within hours and become permanented within days (rat experiments). Neurophysiological changes in the human brain from "newbie" patterns to "automatized" patterns can be shown (with functional MRI) within 15 minutes of practice. Research on various kinds of elite performers (musicians, athletes, Formula 1 drivers, typists, etc.) show that it takes about 10 years of deliberate practice some 3-4 hours/day to reach the top of the top. Apart from the obvious prior need for a certain level of maturity, the main driving factor is to have fun and to receive positive feedback. "The brain will run with fun." E.g., children with reading and learning difficulties may still be experts on all the Pokémon characters and their complicated interactions. (I.e., the multiplication table has to be much more fun!!) The difference for language learning is rather social, I think: Since we begin learning the prosody (rhythm and intonation) of our L1 (first language) even before we are born and then practice it (and gradually more and more of the rest of the language) daily for all our waking hours, we all do reach the top-of-the-top level by about 10 years of age (called "native speaker"), and any performance short of that will be called (scorned??) as "foreign accent". Corresponding "foreign accents" in music, sports, driving, etc., are not so obvious and only revealed as more or less inferior performance than some or other arbitrary measure. People retain their learning abilities throughout life. Even just listening to the news and being able to recount it is learning. Alzheimer patients also have the capability of learning, but they will need smaller quotas and more repetitions. (=More patience on the caretakers' part.) Recovering from a stroke, as is not uncommon in old aged people, entails exactly the same neurophysiological principles as any other learning. Their remaining brain has to learn what the lesioned parts have lost. Spontaneous recovery (plasticity) is enormous, but with dedicated, intensive, deliberate rehabilitation training, the results will come faster and reach higher. The same, of course, with an old (or young) unlesioned brain! :-) So, go ahead and learn as many languages you wish! There is no need to separate them serially in time. They will each occupy their own circuits in your brain. Edited by okjhum on 27 August 2010 at 3:50pm 15 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| okjhum Pentaglot Groupie Sweden olle-kjellin.com Joined 5203 days ago 40 posts - 190 votes Speaks: Swedish*, Japanese, English, German, Russian Studies: Spanish, Polish, Greek | Message 44 of 57 27 August 2010 at 1:29pm | IP Logged | ||
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A usually unmentioned factor is what we mean by "learning" a new language. We all have different interests and ambitions. In order to learn the vocabulary even a lifetime is not long enough. For all the grammar, it may take x months or years? (I don't know if anyone ever has measured this.). To learn the letters, maybe 1 to some weeks, depending on the language? But how about the pronunciation? The accent? Actually, this is about the smallest component to learn! With adequate tuition, interest and dedication, it should not take longer than the letters, but rather less. Because the pronunciation rules are natural and mainly without exceptions, whereas most writing systems contain a lot of inconsistencies and idiosyncrasies that are more or less difficult to learn. Just look at the silly(?) spellings of English, French, Swedish or Tibetan, all of them, however, with fairly straight pronunciation rules! (One of my favourites is the English rule "i before e except after c" as in believe vs receive. Yeah, right; all these inadequacies, prophecies, legacies, ...:-D Inconsistent spelling rule, but the same pronunciation [si:] that almost anyone can produce with ease.)
As a phonetician, I'm happy enough to learn as good prosody/accent and pronunciation as possible, knowing that I have no time anyway to dedicate to a "complete" second language competence. I.e., in linguistic terminology, I will prioritize *performance* over *competence*. Superficially, I will then pass as a very proficient user of several languages, while after only a few initial phrases, I will be ruthlessly revealed as a foreigner. As a medical doctor, I'm more than happy to be able to greet my patients and ask a couple of initial questions in their native languages, as well as chatting with my immigrated colleagues. Doing this gives me a very good contact with these patients. You can't imagine how proud I was the other year because I had to almost forcefully convince a Bosnian patient that I'm indeed only Swedish, not another Bosnian refugee, never been to Yugoslavia, and only knew those initial phrases! (This particular Bosnian, BTW, was very angry, because I had had him wait so long in the emergency waiting room, but after having scolded me - in vain, because I didn't understand that kind of language :) and he finally realized and accepted that as a fact - all the rage went off him and we had a very nice time together.) Last year I began learning Greek, and this year Polish and most recently Hungarian. My Greek and Polish colleagues believe I know much more than I actually do (I overheard them). Hehe. :-) And, oh, I'm soon 63... 9 persons have voted this message useful | |||
 Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6702 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 45 of 57 27 August 2010 at 11:16pm | IP Logged | ||
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I don't think that the English spelling in itself is difficult - the difficult task is to to connect the writing with the pronunciation, and that's a nightmare from any point of view. The reason that we have problem is that almost everybody who learns a language insists on using it for both reading/writing and speaking.
And no, I don't see any upper age limit for learning languages, except in cases of dementia or lack of selfconfidence. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| doviende Diglot Senior Member Canada languagefixatio Joined 5985 days ago 533 posts - 1245 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Spanish, Dutch, Mandarin, Esperanto, Hindi, Swedish, Portuguese | Message 46 of 57 28 August 2010 at 9:27am | IP Logged | ||
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Welcome to the forum, Olle. Thanks for your comments, and I look forward to reading more :)
You mention that accent should take very little time to learn (I'm assuming this refers to your favoured chorusing method of learning it). I'm curious about your experience with people who've spent significant time practicing the wrong pronunciations, though. If someone has really automatized a "listener-unfriendly" foreign accent through months or years of practice, how much longer would it take to change that, assuming the appropriate motivation and methods? 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| okjhum Pentaglot Groupie Sweden olle-kjellin.com Joined 5203 days ago 40 posts - 190 votes Speaks: Swedish*, Japanese, English, German, Russian Studies: Spanish, Polish, Greek | Message 47 of 57 28 August 2010 at 6:25pm | IP Logged | ||
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We'll see next week, when I'm going to have a full week's pronunciation training with immigrated physicians who are dissatisfied with their pron. Or whose employers are... :)
Actually, it's about the same as for an actor learning to act in another dialect than her or his own. Hard work will always lead to success. Accent *Addition*! (Not "change") But it's easier for the foreigners, because their current Swedish (English, etc.) pronunciation is usually too defect to be any deeper rooted - compared with one's native language. Edited by okjhum on 28 August 2010 at 6:25pm 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| slucido Bilingual Diglot Senior Member Spain https://goo.gl/126Yv Joined 6674 days ago 1296 posts - 1781 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Spanish*, Catalan* Studies: English | Message 48 of 57 29 August 2010 at 10:11am | IP Logged | ||
Is it possible to practice your chorusing method with recordings? Thank you. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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