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LINGQ: Explicit grammar instruction | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Language Programs, Books & Tapes |  | |
| Andy E Triglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 7109 days ago 1651 posts - 1939 votes  Speaks: English*, Spanish, French | Message 9 of 69 13 August 2007 at 12:46am | IP Logged | ||||||||
I'd be very interested in seeing you manage the Active Wave in an Assimil course without the source language being there at all. However, I do prefer a wordlist/glossary to a complete translation which is why I remain unconvinced by bi-lingual texts in L-R. I make little use of the translation in the Passive Wave preferring to work as much as possible in the target language. It remains a necessity in the Active Wave though... ...and I have to say I quite like the notes as well - there's often extra examples of sentences showing nuances of meaning. Andy. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Captain Haddock Diglot Senior Member Japan kanjicabinet.tumblr. Joined 6774 days ago 2282 posts - 2814 votes Speaks: English*, Japanese Studies: French, Korean, Ancient Greek | Message 10 of 69 13 August 2007 at 1:40am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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I find I need grammatical explanation — and the more in-depth, the better — as part of my language-learning feedback process.
Learning grammar isn't so different from learning vocabulary. First I read the rules and examples on some grammar point; then, when I encounter it in the real world, I'm better equipped to understand what's going on. Additionally, while I'm reading and carrying on conversations, I tend to pick up grammatical expressions I haven't explicitly studied in my textbooks. At that point, I return to the grammar books to make sure I can understand and apply this grammar correctly. Language is simply too intricate for most adults to learn correctly with mere exposure alone. For example, the English learners I know who haven't studied grammar in great detail may be competent at conversation, but utterly incapable of writing a sentence without errors, or composing a paragraph with logical sentence flow. Edited by Captain Haddock on 13 August 2007 at 1:41am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Zhuangzi Nonaglot Language Program Publisher Senior Member Canada lingq.com Joined 7034 days ago 646 posts - 688 votes Speaks: English*, French, Japanese, Swedish, Mandarin, Cantonese, German, Italian, Spanish Studies: Russian | Message 11 of 69 13 August 2007 at 2:07am | IP Logged | ||||||||
The ones who have studied grammar are often equally incapable of writing a sentence without errors etc. I do not find much of a correlation between competent use of the language and grammar study. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| audiolang Diglot Senior Member Romania Joined 6326 days ago 108 posts - 109 votes 2 sounds Speaks: Romanian*, English | Message 12 of 69 13 August 2007 at 8:11am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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La conclusion:Ne pas essayer d'ecrire aucune phrase,parler est plus facile.
so I hope that my last written French sentence is correct. As far as I see it ,we're doomed to make the same errors for the rest of our lives with or without the help of grammar so I hope that my last written French sentence is correct. Of course I am only joking. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| slucido Bilingual Diglot Senior Member Spain https://goo.gl/126Yv Joined 6681 days ago 1296 posts - 1781 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Spanish*, Catalan* Studies: English | Message 13 of 69 13 August 2007 at 3:22pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
People are often incapable of writing sentences without errors in their own native language. It seems to me that writing is a difficult skill. I am sure that grammar knowledge can be very useful, but I think writing corrections from a tutor is the best method. I mean feedback from your spontaneous writing. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Zhuangzi Nonaglot Language Program Publisher Senior Member Canada lingq.com Joined 7034 days ago 646 posts - 688 votes Speaks: English*, French, Japanese, Swedish, Mandarin, Cantonese, German, Italian, Spanish Studies: Russian | Message 14 of 69 13 August 2007 at 4:27pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
Yes Slucido, and then you need to look at the corrections, study them and then start noticing similar phrases and patterns in your reading and listening. We do the same on our online discussions. The tutor does not correct the speaker verbally, usually, but just writes down the words and phrases that were used incorrectly. The learner then imports these in order to see other examples of how this word is used. Gradually, by noticing how words are used, new habits are formed. The learner can at any time ask the tutor "why" or "please explain". But the initiative should come from the learner. This is different from text books which tell you that in the next chapter you will learn the subjunctive.Rather if you are interested in certain content and after a while you notice certain word use patterns, try to use them or ask questions about them. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| slucido Bilingual Diglot Senior Member Spain https://goo.gl/126Yv Joined 6681 days ago 1296 posts - 1781 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Spanish*, Catalan* Studies: English | Message 15 of 69 13 August 2007 at 4:39pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
And I think it's a very interesting method to enhance the motivation to learn grammar. For example, I don't like grammar and I think it's very boring. However when I have a lot of curiosity, because I am aware of my mistakes , grammar is enjoyable. In fact, learning languages is very boring for me, but when I need the language or I have curiosity, I like a lot the process of learning languages. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
 Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6709 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 16 of 69 13 August 2007 at 6:53pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Zhuangzi and I may not agree on much concerning the role of grammar, but I have to say that a textbook with 90% explanations and 10% text is a misnomer. A grammar might have that proportion of grammar to text, but most good grammars have more text hidden in their examples than 10%. What is worse, a book that is pretending to be a textbook system or something like that and doesn't contain much more text is so confused about its own role, that it is likely that its authors are just as confused about how to present the grammar in the most efficient and clear way.
This in fact is one of my own reasons for not using text books, except for providing a certain amount of ultra simple text for people who can't deal with anything else yet. Personally I would never start a language without having a two-way (or two one-way) dictionary plus a good grammar at my disposal. By a good grammar I understand a grammar that 1) states the rules (including declension and conjugation tables) in as simple and clear form as possible, though without leaving out important parts of the system, 2) deals with the exceptions (anything that can't be put in a simple form under 1.) in as clear and stringent form as possible, leaving old or dialectal or otherwise irrelevant forms to footnotes. It is necessary to have a hierarchy in the presentation, because a grammar isn't meant to teach you everything here and now. You should be able at one glance to see what is central and what is not, so that you can see the whole system, but learn some of it now and leave the rest of it for later study. Unfortunately just about any text book that I have ever set my eyes on has been utterly incompetent in doing this. Therefore they should rather stick with lots of graded texts (including the relevant wordlists) and leave the explanations for real grammars. Edited by Iversen on 16 August 2007 at 4:13am 1 person has voted this message useful |
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