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Michel Thomas "Advanced" Mandarin | ||
Tags: Michel Thomas | Mandarin | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Language Programs, Books & Tapes |  | |
| AlexL Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 7090 days ago 197 posts - 277 votes  Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: Italian | Message 1 of 4 12 November 2008 at 1:48pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
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I had a chance to listen to the Advanced Mandarin course put out by Michel Thomas today, and was not very happy with it.
I don't know who decided to call it "advanced," but it is anything but. There is a part in the beginning where you learn how to say "which" and "where". Aren't these beginner topics? Indeed, almost everything in the course would be covered in a respectable beginner's textbook (ie, first semester class) by chapter 3 or 4. When coupled with the $70 beginner's course, which I assume gets you to this point, that's a pretty hefty investment for a pretty low return. Furthermore, the speed of the native speaker on the tape never even approaches natural talking speed--this IS a course labeled "advanced." In fact, it never even reaches the speed of speech found on Pimsleur's first few lessons. Every word is separated by a pause. This is not only bad for learning in general, but especially so in Chinese where it is necessary to hear the rhythm of an entire sentence, how all the tones go together, etc. There are errors (or wholly unnatural-sounding Chinese) on the tape that the instructor never corrects. For example, in the beginning he asks, "How do you say 'this book'?" Any student of Chinese who has read the first couple chapters in any of the widely used Chinese textbooks would know to respond "Zhe ben shu". The students on the tape say "Zhe ge shu," an answer reinforced by the native speaker. While it is not technically incorrect, it is something you'd never hear a Chinese person say. An important part of the language is the different measure words; ge should only be used when there's not a better one. Especially with one so common like "ben" you'd think the course would have taught it. Language learners would have much more luck and bang for the buck purchasing New Practical Chinese Reader, Colloquial Chinese, Teach Yourself Chinese, Pimsleur, Integrated Chinese, Ultimate Chinese, FSI Chinese, or almost any other course than with this one. Even if you can only make it through the first few units, you'll have learned more than the Michel Thomas courses will teach you, and you'll have spent less money. At least that's how it appears to me; maybe someone else can defend the MT courses. What's sad is that this is a huge departure from the quality courses in Spanish, French, German, and Italian, where "advanced" actually meant advanced, and grammar was taught and explained clearly. In the Chinese course, speech is extremely unnaturally slow, grammar points are few, vocabulary is even fewer, and mastery of Chinese is limited at best. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| BGreco Senior Member Joined 6399 days ago 211 posts - 222 votes 3 sounds Speaks: English* Studies: French, Spanish | Message 2 of 4 12 November 2008 at 9:48pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
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While I can't comment on the mistakes, I'd like to point out a few things.
1. The author himself has said the course is not "advanced." That is simply how they name the series. 2. Obviously NPCR is going to be better than Michel Thomas, but that takes effort to study and a lot longer than 13 hours. 3. Michel's goal was "getting it over the net," being able to be understood. It seems this course has accomplished that more in 13 hours than any other course, by far. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| TheElvenLord Diglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 6086 days ago 915 posts - 927 votes 1 sounds Speaks: Cornish, English* Studies: Spanish, French, German Studies: Portuguese, Mandarin | Message 3 of 4 13 November 2008 at 2:56am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
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The main courses (Fr, Sp, Germ, It) focused on verbs, because that is a very difficult area. Chinese just doesn't have that.
He teaches those words in the Foundation, it is just that they review it in the "Advanced". TEL 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| AlexL Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 7090 days ago 197 posts - 277 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: Italian | Message 4 of 4 13 November 2008 at 3:56pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
That's good to know, but someone browsing in Barnes & Noble who sees the course may be lead to believe that it is an advanced course. Even the Michel Thomas website does not really do anything to say that it is not an advanced course.
While NPCR would take longer to complete than thirteen hours, thirteen hours of study could certainly lead you to chapter three, four or five, at which point you'd know much more than you do at the end of the MT course. As for the effort exerted, there are certainly methods out there, like ChineseLearnOnline, that do not require as much effort as textbook study. Pimsleur or Rosetta Stone also work. These require only the amount of attention that MT does. (or maybe just a little bit more)
The fact that Chinese has practically no hard grammar (no words ever change) means that he could have really focused in on some of the harder aspects of Chinese grammar: sentence patterns. All of the sentence patterns taught are very basic. No "ruguo...jiu..." or "bei4" or "ba3..." for direct objects. Also, because Chinese "tenses" (they don't REALLY exist, but there are ways to express past/future actions) are so simple, he could easily have taught them in the foundation course. In fact, Michel Thomas taught students how to say more things in Spanish, French, Italian, etc. DESPITE the fact that in those languages, it is much harder to make those sentence structures than it is in Chinese.
Hmm, I wouldn't say that. After 13 hours of Pimsleur, the learner should be almost completed with the first level. Not only is speech faster, but more is taught grammar-wise, vocabulary-wise, and in terms of listening comprehension. (In Pimsleur, they actually speak at a semi-normal speed.) Even at the end of the MT course, the instructor is guiding them on in how to form their sentences: eg, he wants them to say "I didn't eat dinner yesterday." But then he guides them through: they start to say "I" and he says, "Yesterday." then they translate yesterday. He says, "mei you" which is the word for "didn't" and they say "mei you" and he says, "eat dinner" and they say "chi wan fan." They are not internalizing word order--he is spelling out the word order for them! "more in 13 hours than any other course by far" is a huge overstatement. I'd say it teaches less than most courses do in 13 hours, and what it teaches, students have to think long and hard about before being able to produce anything. The students' pace of speech is alarmingly slow.
For some words, this is true. For many, like "which" and "where," it is not. When he teaches them about "which" and "where," the woman says, "that's really neat" (because the way Chinese forms the word where from the word which makes logical sense--which place). It is clear they have not seen these words before... 1 person has voted this message useful |
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