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Discovered The Michel Thomas programs | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Language Programs, Books & Tapes |  | |
| AlexL Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 7090 days ago 197 posts - 277 votes  Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: Italian | Message 9 of 35 03 July 2008 at 8:08pm | IP Logged | |||||
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It's good to hear that the pace of the audio picks up, at least.
I do understand that obviously the Chinese course can't teach the same things as the original ones do because Chinese is very different from the romance languages. Chinese has no verb tenses, or conjugations. However, it does have sentence structures, and many more could be taught, based on the table of contents. Does MT ever teach you "if...then..."--"ru guo...jiu"? For a course that boasts that it teaches you structure over vocabulary, MTM Chinese seems a little weak in the structure department. Maybe I'm wrong--I don't have the full course. This is based off of their website. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| TheElvenLord Diglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 6086 days ago 915 posts - 927 votes 1 sounds Speaks: Cornish, English* Studies: Spanish, French, German Studies: Portuguese, Mandarin | Message 10 of 35 04 July 2008 at 2:52am | IP Logged | |||||
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The table of contents does not give the whole course.
I am on CD 4, and am very close to the bottom of that list, therefore the other 4 CD's they have not given details about. From the booklet you recieve with the course, it looks very extensive. As to speed, you can hear, as you go through the course, that she gets faster and faster, and at CD 4, she is saying groups of words (eg. Zhe4 ge ren2) quite fast, then a gap, then the rest. TEL 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Cainntear Pentaglot Senior Member Scotland linguafrankly.blogsp Joined 6017 days ago 4399 posts - 7687 votes Speaks: Lowland Scots, English*, French, Spanish, Scottish Gaelic Studies: Catalan, Italian, German, Irish, Welsh | Message 11 of 35 04 July 2008 at 7:19am | IP Logged | |||||
Unfortunately, this is the justification that a lot of people use to defend the differences between the new courses and the old courses.
I haven't got very far with Russian (and I don't have the Mandarin or Arabic), but so far there's one thing that jumps out: vocabulary. Where Michel would be asking for "where can I buy it?", Natasha instead asks "where can I buy newspapers and magazines." If you complain, people say "but Russian is different from, say, Spanish". Yes, it is. Yes, its noun system is more complicated. But while Spanish lost most of its inflection for nouns, it retained a lot in its pronouns. Pronouns are one of the areas where the two languages are most similar. Pronouns are used more in speech than concrete nouns. MT used pronouns. There really was no reason to use so many nouns in the course, and it slows it down unnecessarily. Oh, there is a reason: because the way you do things is better than the way he does things. Except it's not. That's why MT did it his way, and that's why his way's quicker. Oh, and before anyone criticises me for making these comments based on about 2 hours of listening: I was skeptical of MT, but then I bought the Spanish course. I worked through the first two discs in a single sitting, and did the third the next night. I was engrossed. This was in contrast to stuff like Teach Yourself, which I had trouble sitting down with for more than 15 minutes at a time, and I never felt I had learned anything from them. I managed to tolerate about 30-40 minutes of Natasha before my head was exploding with mispronunciations and irrelevant images and I wanted to throw my MP3 player in a gutter. (She is the undisputed queen of mismnemonics.) Edited by Cainntear on 04 July 2008 at 7:25am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| TheElvenLord Diglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 6086 days ago 915 posts - 927 votes 1 sounds Speaks: Cornish, English* Studies: Spanish, French, German Studies: Portuguese, Mandarin | Message 12 of 35 04 July 2008 at 10:32am | IP Logged | |||||
She is a native Russian speaker, with an accentless English. I dont exactly think she was mis-pronouncing it. I agree that the courses can be a little slow (I have done French, Mandarin and Spanish) in Mandarin compared to French and Spanish, But I am actually glad that they are that speed - I dont feel that I can go any faster. TEL 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Cainntear Pentaglot Senior Member Scotland linguafrankly.blogsp Joined 6017 days ago 4399 posts - 7687 votes Speaks: Lowland Scots, English*, French, Spanish, Scottish Gaelic Studies: Catalan, Italian, German, Irish, Welsh | Message 13 of 35 04 July 2008 at 12:05pm | IP Logged | |||||
Sorry, it wasn't that she was mispronuouncing anything explicitly, but her "mnemonics" interfered with the word they were supposed to be helping me remember. EG (please excuse my somewhat naive attempts at a phonetic rendering) njel'sja: "sounds a bit like Nelson" -> my pronunciation njel'so spa'siba: "the three places you go: spa, sea, bar" -> my pronunciation spa'sibar (rhotic accent) panji'matz: "pony mat" -> my pronunciation poni'matz (and one of the guys on the CD did this too) xara'sho: "car ashore" -> kara'shoar again, the rhotic accent, but also /k/ where there should be /x/, when as a Scotsman, this shouldn't be a problem. That's why I called them "mismnemonics". Edited by Cainntear on 04 July 2008 at 12:06pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| TheElvenLord Diglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 6086 days ago 915 posts - 927 votes 1 sounds Speaks: Cornish, English* Studies: Spanish, French, German Studies: Portuguese, Mandarin | Message 14 of 35 04 July 2008 at 12:29pm | IP Logged | |||||
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I see what you mean, but then again, its better than no mnemonics, and it is very hard to link Russian words to English.
TEL 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Cage Diglot aka a.ardaschira, Athena, Michael Thomas Senior Member United States Joined 6630 days ago 382 posts - 393 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: French, Portuguese | Message 15 of 35 05 July 2008 at 7:06am | IP Logged | |||||
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Cainntear and TheElevenlord,
Please explain why you think MT courses are the greatest courses on the planet for bringing one greater mastery of a language than any other course. Don't get me wrong I believe that MT can make a good peripheral element in the total program, but to be the be all end all holy grail that you gentlemen seem to imply, I just don't see it. First off the total audio is less that 20 cds which would be a good amount if there was text to go with it but there is no text. Secondly, without text and audio only you are going to be illiterate after completing it. I don't like any English on my audio either. You have ridiculed FSI for being too boring with all the drills and repitition. But afterwards you are going to not only be able to speak and understand but read and write too, at least in the Spanish and French programs. I don't know about any others. Not all FSI courses were created the same. Can you really consider yourself deep into any language while still being illiterate in it? Anyway even FSI needs to be supplemented by other resources. I can see the appeal of MT in that it does not make one do boring things like tests and learning to read and write. You gentlemen don't have anything against learning to read and write do you? Edited by Cage on 05 July 2008 at 7:11am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| TheElvenLord Diglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 6086 days ago 915 posts - 927 votes 1 sounds Speaks: Cornish, English* Studies: Spanish, French, German Studies: Portuguese, Mandarin | Message 16 of 35 05 July 2008 at 7:30am | IP Logged | |||||
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Cage
I don't believe it is the "Be all and end all" of language programs. I just want to get that clear. I believe that it is an amazing program for starting you off in a language, and covering many of the hard bits easily. I have not, and will not, ridicule FSI for being boring with drills and repetitions. Every single course, if you peel back the layers, will have ONE core element : Repetition. Lets take a few examples: Pimsleur - Repetition, over and over, in different sentences, using SRS Assimil - Repeats the word a few times at different points throughout the course Michel Thomas - Repeats the word in question many times over, in different forms FSI - Drills and drill and more drills Flashcards - Repetition Immersion - Repetition of words in a sentence No matter what any course says, Repetition IS the key to language learning. In fact, any learning. What makes FSI a bit boring, is the CONSTANT repetition of things, which they do and boast about constantly. The other courses have repetition, but is concealed or put into a different form, and therefore makes it not as boring. Now, onto your questions I find the lack of text makes it alot easier for me, as it is even more portable. The beauty of the course is that it IS less than 20 CDs long. If you think about it, it is 20 hours (approx) for each language, and if you consider how much you learn in that, compared to things like FSI (6 mounths), Pimsleur (90 days) and Assimil (Over 100 days), there is an awful lot in there! I find that starting with MT requires no previous knowledge (Unlike things like Assimil, i find), a rapid progression and high recall rate of grammar considered "hard" by ordinary learners. BUT, by no means must you ONLY use MT, I like to follow on with Assimil, which I find is a great program for Vocabulary, Idioms and re-inforcing MT. I have nothing against learning to Read or Write, and do not intend to "skip" this section of Mandarin chinese, unlike some others. I like to write. BUT, i believe that if you learn to Speak and Understand first, it is easier to read and write afterwards.. TEL 1 person has voted this message useful |
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