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Chinese cannot be Latinised ! | ||
Tags: Chinese Characters | Mandarin | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| Vlad Trilingual Super Polyglot Senior Member Czechoslovakia foreverastudent.com Joined 6584 days ago 443 posts - 576 votes  2 sounds Speaks: Czech*, Slovak*, Hungarian*, Mandarin, EnglishC2, GermanC2, ItalianC1, Spanish, Russian, Polish, Serbian, French Studies: Persian, Taiwanese, Romanian, Portuguese | Message 65 of 77 16 July 2009 at 6:30pm | IP Logged | |||||
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My two cents:
As it has been said before, I don’t think there are a lot of people that decided to study Chinese, because of its simplicity so those who say, that the Chinese writing system is too complicated and ask questions why it hasn’t been substituted with something easier (those that I’ve met at least) are people that do not study or will not study the language itself. They mostly have no deeper knowledge about the history and system of the characters and are just regular everyday people (in the sense that they represent the opinion of the masses as opposed to students of the Chinese language/sinologists….). Maybe if they had some more experience with the Chinese characters, they would think different. I am surprised, when it comes to this ‘oversensitive’ reaction from some of the Chinese I know and gaa1gaa1 for instance. Hearing them and reading your posts I have the feeling, that you feel that the west is about to impose the Latin alphabet on China tomorrow, which is just not the case. We simply wonder how it is possible to read and write in such a complicated script. It is equal to the situation, where I’ve been asked by a Chinese friend, how it is possible to write down a language using only 30 letters. Nothing wrong intended. If there are people with deeper knowledge of the problem, that would like to see Chinese written in the Latin alphabet, than me as a student, I would be against it. The characters are complex, they badly represent the sound of Standard Mandarin and there’s a lot of them, but in the end they are the ‘easiest’ and a very interesting part in the entire Chinese language learning process. The logic behind the language, pronunciation, the amount of vocabulary that you need to learn in order to have the most basic of discussions..this is far more difficult in my point of view. The characters in my opinion are a part of the Chinese language and culture and should be learned along with everything else. With that said, I am also surprised, when some Chinese always need to stress how old and rich their culture is. It is one of the greatest nations in history, which is a fact and I don’t understand why it has to be reminded of so often. Gaa1gaa1, maybe we can help you spread the word – there actually is a fairly large number of westerners who know something about China and respect its rich history and culture. There is really no need to start every conversation with the sentence: You know, China has a 5000 year old history, we invented silk and paper.. come on. China is the 4th largest country in the world with 1,3bil inhabitants and a long, rich history. There is no need to assure anyone about that. I am not constantly told by Russians, that Russia is the biggest country in the world or whatever. If Slovaks constantly tell everyone that they were the world champions in hockey in 2002 and have beautiful women, I can understand that, because we are a small country, but why Chinese? And I wanted to make one small remark about the 5000 year old history bit. Correct me if I’m wrong but the oldest verified date in Chinese history is ‘only’ the year 841 BC (first year of the rule of Gong He, Zhou dynasty). Huang Di, Yao, Shun, Yu are all mythical emperors. The following Xia dynasty was said to have 17 kings, but none of them were historically/archeologically proven (the Erlitou culture on the Yellow river (2000 – 1550 BC) was according to some the Xia dynasty, but it hasn’t been proven) and the following Shang dynasty (1766 - 1045) was said to have 30 kings but only the last nine were proven. So the number 5000 is a nice round one, but it should also be said, what kind of a 5000 it is. Gaa1gaa1, please don’t take me wrong, I am also a huge fan of Chinese history (especially the Warring states period), philosophy (Kongzi, Mengzi, Hanfeizi) and literature (Li qingzhao, Libai, Dufu, Pu songling, Song yu….Wu jing zi, Liu E). I am just surprised at this over sensitivity of some Chinese, when it comes to the fact, that China has a long, rich history and culture. Edited by Vlad on 16 July 2009 at 7:42pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Pyx Diglot Senior Member China Joined 5735 days ago 670 posts - 892 votes Speaks: German*, English Studies: Mandarin | Message 66 of 77 17 July 2009 at 2:56am | IP Logged | |||||
Vlad, thanks for your long post, but:
I feel I have to repeat myself:
Not I, and definitely not them, represent this side of the matter out of a superiority complex or simply lack of knowledge. As for me, I'm not learning Chinese because of it's difficulty or simplicity or beautiful script or whatever, but simply because I need it to communicate with people. As such, I am of course sort of annoyed by the clumsiness of characters compared with an alphabet, but I ultimately do not care too much how that language is written, seeing that I have the luxury of having enough time and money to be able to study it until I grok it, even if it takes longer than it would with another script. However, the quoted sinologists simply say that it is 1) *possible* to latinize the Chinese language (see thread title) and 2) that there are good reasons to do it too FOR CHINA AND THE CHINESE PEOPLE (not disgruntled students or 'cultural imperalists' :) ) Edited by Pyx on 17 July 2009 at 3:01am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| minus273 Triglot Senior Member France Joined 5765 days ago 288 posts - 346 votes Speaks: Mandarin*, EnglishC2, French Studies: Ancient Greek, Tibetan | Message 67 of 77 17 July 2009 at 3:28am | IP Logged | |||||
'Gzact! For the counter-views... 1) Latinizing the Chinese language calls for, even dictates a revolution in written language. Yes. A bloody revolution than a meek reform. 2) There are good reasons not to do it too for China and the Chinese people (not the literate elite or cultural-imperialismophobiacs). 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Pyx Diglot Senior Member China Joined 5735 days ago 670 posts - 892 votes Speaks: German*, English Studies: Mandarin | Message 68 of 77 17 July 2009 at 3:48am | IP Logged | |||||
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Shush! Always you and your counterviews! ;)
PS: Having said that, I'd be interested to hear your views on where characters help poor people, for example rural farmers in Western China. Their inability to write most of what they can say, and often not even being able to read properly (which cuts them off from many of the means to escape their poverty) seems to me to be largely the fault of characters. How do you see that? Where do you see that characters actually help them? Edited by Pyx on 17 July 2009 at 4:52am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| minus273 Triglot Senior Member France Joined 5765 days ago 288 posts - 346 votes Speaks: Mandarin*, EnglishC2, French Studies: Ancient Greek, Tibetan | Message 69 of 77 17 July 2009 at 5:08am | IP Logged | |||||
My personal stereotypical poor rural people write their correspondences in their native tongue, using the Chinese script quasi-syllabically, i.e. substituting simpler homophones for the more complex ones. (And of course, the superdialectical properties of Chinese script is at work - the distance between colloquial texts in MSM grammar and the westernized jargon of pig-rearing techniques is significantly closer in Chinese characters. Popularized morpheme analysis permits easier understanding of literary urban vocabulary as well.) As usual, for illiteracy, education is the problem. Not the script. In bazaars functionally illiterate people read and write "egg" or "chicken" or "cabbage" in any script. PS: I had a bad logic. Making it a bit more clear, it's harder to teach writing the native dialect in Chinese characters than in an alphabet, but reading/writing practical texts in MSM is easier in Chinese characters. P2S: That being said, though, Kana in Japanese permits a smoother initial curve. In Japan, however, most dialects share one phonological system, and the difficult vocabulary (Chinese and Western) are pronounced about the same everywhere. P3S: For a practical pan-Chinese syllabary/alphabet (in two versions), see the General Chinese by Yuen-Ren Chao. A copy is usually found in the libraries, depending on where you live. Edited by minus273 on 17 July 2009 at 5:37am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| gaa1gaa1 Newbie China Joined 5614 days ago 30 posts - 39 votes Speaks: Mandarin* | Message 70 of 77 17 July 2009 at 5:38am | IP Logged | |||||
1, I must admit the education system of China has defects in some aspects. 2, Unfortunately, China's population has officially passed 1.3 billion people. 3, For example, "Zinedine Zidane" is my most favourite football player, but most of the other players can't reach to his advanced level in their lives, does it mean the football skills is a fault? We'd rather improve the educational issues as soon as possible, than just put all the blames on characters itself. 4, Please excuse me for my poor Chinglish(Chinese English). Edited by gaa1gaa1 on 17 July 2009 at 5:48am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Pyx Diglot Senior Member China Joined 5735 days ago 670 posts - 892 votes Speaks: German*, English Studies: Mandarin | Message 71 of 77 17 July 2009 at 5:38am | IP Logged | |||||
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Hm.. is that based on facts or do you imagine that it works like that?
My problem with that is that these people (judging from Mandarin, because only there I know the numbers) would have to learn to write 400-odd characters to only get the basic syllables down. At least four times that number with tones. I'm not sure how realistic that is. And even if they happen to know all those characters to write so that they can emulate their speech, chances are good that they still can't read, even if they know the words in the vernacular. This opens the door for abuse, e.g. in form of corrupt officials that can tell them pretty much whatever they want is a law, as those poor souls cannot verify that for themselves. Sure, once the people are good enough to read 'colloquial texts in MSM grammar' that is no problem (of the language), neither is it to read farming books or whatever. I just believe that this is not the case for far too many people, and I believe characters are part of the problem. Not that I can think of a perfect solution, but that shouldn't stop us from acknowledging problems.. PS: 啊哟, you and you PSs. Pretty much every time while I compose my answer you append something to your original posts :P That book sounds interesting. Is it in English or in Chinese? I'm living in Beijing -- so if it's Chinese, could you give me the original title? Thanks! Edited by Pyx on 17 July 2009 at 5:41am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Pyx Diglot Senior Member China Joined 5735 days ago 670 posts - 892 votes Speaks: German*, English Studies: Mandarin | Message 72 of 77 17 July 2009 at 5:45am | IP Logged | |||||
Of course there other problems too, but as long as characters act as bound feet in your metaphor, 'cultural' and 'aesthetically pleasing', and you happen to have to play football to earn your living.. well, I at least would be inclined to thoroughly think through their pros and cons ;) 1 person has voted this message useful |
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