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Russian: Nouns change for # [item(s)] | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| cordelia0507 Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5841 days ago 1473 posts - 2176 votes  Speaks: Swedish* Studies: German, Russian | Message 1 of 9 03 June 2009 at 8:54pm | IP Logged |
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I have come across something that I don't understand and that I can't find an explanation for. I wonder if anyone can take a sec and explain to me?
Why is the ending of the noun changing when you say "three trains" compared with "five trains"? How does this work and is there some kind of formula or logic to it? Does it work in the same way for ALL nouns or vary? Edited by cordelia0507 on 03 June 2009 at 8:58pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| Weizenkeim Diglot Groupie GermanyRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 6107 days ago 70 posts - 72 votes Speaks: German*, English Studies: Russian | Message 2 of 9 03 June 2009 at 8:59pm | IP Logged |
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hi cordelia, the case of the noun changes depending on number of the counted items.
nom sg for 1, gen sg for 2-4, gen pl for 5+ There was a discussion some time ago here there you can read it detail. (I remember having read in some grammar book, WHY this strange beahviour has developed in the language. But I forgot the reason as well as where I read it... So if anybody knows - I'd like to read it again :) ) Edited by Weizenkeim on 03 June 2009 at 9:02pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| cordelia0507 Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5841 days ago 1473 posts - 2176 votes Speaks: Swedish* Studies: German, Russian | Message 3 of 9 03 June 2009 at 9:15pm | IP Logged |
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Thanks so much for the link, I've checked the other post. No easy answer by the look of it.
This is really depressing though, because the most informative answer starts talking about "genitive and nominative singular..." I don't know what that is! Or is it possible to just memorise these number changes once and for all, like an irregular verb? Edited by cordelia0507 on 03 June 2009 at 9:28pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| Weizenkeim Diglot Groupie GermanyRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 6107 days ago 70 posts - 72 votes Speaks: German*, English Studies: Russian | Message 4 of 9 03 June 2009 at 9:40pm | IP Logged |
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hmmm. well. When I first came across this, I thought - what the hell!? Now that I got little more used to it - well I can just find no real reason, why it is like that, but the rules themselves are not that complicated. It is to master I think.
But you won't be able to avoid cases in general. Nouns change their endings for each case. There are declension patterns nouns, according to gender which you either have to memorize or just trust, that they will come to you finally. And nouns will get those endings attached, depending on different grammatical issues. One issue is counting and for nouns after numbers, genitive ending is used. The poor learner just has to accept. I don't know, how far you have gotten in your russians studies. But if you haven't yet, download the princeton russian course, print it out and read it. I did that right at the beginning, without really trying to do any excercises or learn the words. It is a very comprehensible slow introduction into russian, quite fun to read, lots of audio - and grammar comes bit by bit in swallowable portions. After I had read it I knew what expected me and it didn't seem all to overwhelming anymore. It also goes into the number and counting thing. http://www.freelanguagecourses.com/language/russian/princeto n-russian-course-51/ 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| Chung Diglot Senior Member Joined 7159 days ago 4228 posts - 8259 votes 20 sounds Speaks: English*, French Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish | Message 5 of 9 03 June 2009 at 9:40pm | IP Logged |
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The short answer is that Proto-Slavonic had singular, dual and plural. Only Sorbian and Slovenian maintain full declension with dual. The other modern Slavonic languages no longer have full declension with dual, but its loss explains why nouns that occur in pairs (e.g. eyes, hands) have "irregular" declension in the plural. The traces of the dual are what make these "paired-nouns" seem odd. It also explains why declining numerals in most Slavonic languages can be difficult for foreigners to learn.
The use of genitive plural for nouns that are preceded by 5 or more was something present from Proto-Slavonic and retained by the modern Slavonic languages (excepting Bulgarian and Macedonian). In the case of Russian, the dual pattern in the nominative appeared similar to the declension in genitive singular ("-a" ending). As time went on, this dual declension that applied to "two" began to affect the declension of nouns that follow "three" and "four". By the time the dual was lost everywhere else in Old or Middle Russian, the dual ending was reinterpreted as an ending in genitive singular. This likely explains why nouns in nominative that follow 2, 3 and 4 decline in genitive singular in modern Russian. A similar phenomenon of using the genitive singular after 2, 3 and 4 is also observable in Belorussian and BCS / Serbo-Croatian. There's a summary at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_(grammatical_number) (Click on 4.5 "The dual in the Slavic languages") 2 persons have voted this message useful | |
| Weizenkeim Diglot Groupie GermanyRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 6107 days ago 70 posts - 72 votes Speaks: German*, English Studies: Russian | Message 6 of 9 03 June 2009 at 10:09pm | IP Logged |
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Thank you Chung. Now I also found the book, where I read about it. But your explanation was more helpful.
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| Chung Diglot Senior Member Joined 7159 days ago 4228 posts - 8259 votes 20 sounds Speaks: English*, French Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish | Message 7 of 9 03 June 2009 at 10:39pm | IP Logged |
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Не за что
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| phouk Diglot Newbie Germany Joined 6041 days ago 28 posts - 48 votes Speaks: German*, English Studies: Russian | Message 8 of 9 04 June 2009 at 9:56pm | IP Logged |
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Just learn:
One apple. (nom.sg.) Two of apple. (gen.sg.) Three of apple. Four of apple. Five of apples. (gen.pl.) Six of apples. ... Ten of apples. (exception - gen.pl.) Eleven of apples. (exception) Twelve of apples. (exception) Thirteen of apples. (exception) Fourteen of apples. (exception) ... Twenty of apples (gen.pl). Twenty and one apple (nom.sg.). Twenty and two of apple (gen.sg.) Twenty and three of apple. Twenty and four of apple. Twenty and five of apples (gen.pl). ... Thirty of apples. Thirty and one apple. Thirty and two of apple Thirty and three of apple. Thirty and four of apple. Thirty and five of apples. ... etc. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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