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Leer Escuchando: Alba’s Spanish Accent | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
 Hencke Tetraglot Moderator Spain Joined 6894 days ago 2340 posts - 2444 votes  Speaks: Swedish*, Finnish, EnglishC2, Spanish Studies: Mandarin Personal Language Map | Message 17 of 23 03 July 2009 at 5:37pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
Dear Javi, let's not get too upset now about a throw-away remark like the one I made there, in a joking spirit more than anything. And thank you for your valuable input here, and in the other debate.
Except that there were more issues raised, than the two points you pick for your list here. In the actual debate, a case was being built that there is no standard accent. In support, three cities in those areas were specifically mentioned by name with the implication that their accents are too far apart to be lumped together as valid reference points for such a standard. As you say, it might be a valid standpoint to take such a view, and it could quite possibly be defended convincingly, and no doubt it would be an interesting debate. But supporting the concept of a "castellano puro y duro" at the same time would seem suprising or even silly. It is a reasonable interpretation that building a case for one, implies a rejection of the other.
I don't think I got anything wrong the first time. Edited by Hencke on 03 July 2009 at 6:02pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| Javi Senior Member Spain Joined 5981 days ago 419 posts - 548 votes Speaks: Spanish* | Message 18 of 23 04 July 2009 at 12:12am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
Well, maybe it was me then. The way I understood, Rmss said that castellano, that is, Spanish, has a lot of different dialects or varieties in the Kingdom of Spain, and the debate about a standard accent is a bit worthless. I agree with that. I guess that if he mentioned three cities inside the Castilian area was because no cities outside that area have ever been quoted as having an accent that could be considered a standard for the whole nation. That said, and given that you seem very interested in the homogeneity of the Spanish spoken in Nothern Castile, the accent of Madrid does has a lot of noticeable differences with other cities more in the North, as I suppose you know, until the point that some people would classify that accent along with Spanish Southern accents. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| guilon Pentaglot Senior Member Spain Joined 6192 days ago 226 posts - 229 votes Speaks: Spanish*, PortugueseC2, FrenchC2, Italian, English | Message 19 of 23 05 July 2009 at 4:25am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
Not really a lot of differentiated features, just SOME specific things being slightly different from other Castilian cities, I can't see how anyone could consider Spanish spoken in Madrid a Southern dialect. Seriously? Along with Sevilla and Cádiz? Apart from some few peculiarities to every city, there is a real dialectal continuum in both the Castiles and Madrid. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| Javi Senior Member Spain Joined 5981 days ago 419 posts - 548 votes Speaks: Spanish* | Message 20 of 23 05 July 2009 at 10:25am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
Dialecto castellano Dialecto manchego Dialecto madrileño Some quotes from Wikipedia.es:
I hope you'll see now how some people could do that. Obviously, the accent of Madrid is perceived as Northern in Andalusia, but it is also perceived as Southern in some places in the North of Spain. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| guilon Pentaglot Senior Member Spain Joined 6192 days ago 226 posts - 229 votes Speaks: Spanish*, PortugueseC2, FrenchC2, Italian, English | Message 21 of 23 06 July 2009 at 1:35am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
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I see what you mean, Javi, but I still think those linguistic theories are biased and misleading. If you take a look
to the as"> features of Northern Castilian, almost all them are common to the Madrilenian and Southern Castilian dialects, except maybe for the "laísmo" phenomenon, which isn't even homogeneous throughout the North. As for the aspiration of final S, it is utterly exaggerated in Wikipedia, it is not an universal occurrence as stated there, and what is worse, it is virtually the only differential feature for Madrid in those theories. But what Hencke said on the other thread is true,
As a proof of this, I think Alba is Castilian (I also think her J pronounciation is completely "castellano puro y duro" even if not as harsh as the colloquial one), but I couldn't tell where from, I sincerely think she could be from Valladolid as well as from Toledo. Edited by guilon on 06 July 2009 at 1:39am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| guilon Pentaglot Senior Member Spain Joined 6192 days ago 226 posts - 229 votes Speaks: Spanish*, PortugueseC2, FrenchC2, Italian, English | Message 22 of 23 06 July 2009 at 11:15pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
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1-Aspiration in Madrid is NOT universal, it does exist and it may be growing but it is not used all the time by all
the speakers, besides, more than an aspiration, it is a mutation from S into a rough J sound, and only before C and G (therefore it is not a common feature with Andalusian dialect at all, you know what Andalusians do with their final S, don't you?) I am not hiding my head anywhere, I am really aware of my own way of speaking. We don't try to avoid that to happen, it is not the norm, it comes out of your mouth from time to time but more often than not we use just a plain S. 2-So, you state that this feature alone is a proof big enough to conclude there is a dialectal continuum between Andalusia, Madrid and Southern Castile ("the ultimate rule of thumb"), but you can't acknowledge it is only a local phenomenon that doesn't prevent the Castilian dialect from existing. The aspiration homogeneity from Cadiz to Madrid is only as inaccurate as Wikipedia itself. And now I am out of this debate, thank you for your interest. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| guilon Pentaglot Senior Member Spain Joined 6192 days ago 226 posts - 229 votes Speaks: Spanish*, PortugueseC2, FrenchC2, Italian, English | Message 23 of 23 06 July 2009 at 11:29pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
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Mysteriously, Javi's post just disappeared and mine doesn't make sense anymore.
1 person has voted this message useful |
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