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Incomplete Passive Voice (Spanish) | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| Kaylalyak Newbie United States Joined 5675 days ago 9 posts - 9 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Latin, Spanish | Message 1 of 15 21 June 2009 at 6:35am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Could someone please clarify?
My book says this is used when there is no named agent (alright), and gives examples such as "They say that cats make nice pets" and "You should look both ways before crossing the street", and etc. I get that "They" or "You" in these sentences is ambiguous, but they still don't seem to be passive...? And also one question about proper translation from the answer keys. "If you drive like a madman, you'll get a ticket."--> "Si se maneja como un loco, te darán una multa." But, "If you exercise more and eat less, you'll lose weight."--> "Si se hace más ejercicio y se come menos, se adelgazará." These sentences seem to have the same structure. I'm confused with "te darán" and "se adelgazará". Are there errors? What's correct? If these are, why? MUCHAS GRACIAS 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Cainntear Pentaglot Senior Member Scotland linguafrankly.blogsp Joined 6010 days ago 4399 posts - 7687 votes  Speaks: Lowland Scots, English*, French, Spanish, Scottish Gaelic Studies: Catalan, Italian, German, Irish, Welsh | Message 2 of 15 21 June 2009 at 9:15am | IP Logged | ||||||||
What does it matter what they're called if you understand the concept? Labels like "passive" are really only there to help you organise your understanding of the language -- if it doesn't, don't use it!
They are different constructions. To lose weight here is reflexive -- you "lose-weight yourself", and the "se" means yourself here. However, in the other someone else is giving a ticket to you. The error here is that both sentences are using "Usted" (se maneja, se hace) except for this "te darán" bit. To make it fit the Usted form, it should be le darán -- they will give to you, sir. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| charlmartell Super Polyglot Senior Member Portugal Joined 6243 days ago 286 posts - 298 votes Speaks: French, English, German, Luxembourgish*, Spanish, Portuguese, Russian, Dutch, Italian, Latin, Ancient Greek Studies: Mandarin, Japanese | Message 3 of 15 21 June 2009 at 3:20pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
Replace "they" (first sentence) and "you" (second sentence) by English impersonal (no named agent) "one" and you have the exact same construction in English as when using impersonal "se" in Spanish. "Se dice ...." active "one says that..." or passive "it is said that..." "Se debe mirar ...." rendered in English actively as "one should look ...." or passively "Looking should be done ....." (which of course might not be the most elegant translation). The Spanish active "se" construction often replaces an English passive one: se vende casa - house for sale (= is being sold) se hace así - it's done this way no se permite - it is not allowed etc.
What on earth makes you think that both sentences are using "Usted"? They're not, they're using the impersonal "se dice, se sabe, se maneja...." equivalent of French "on" or English "one". It's exactly the same in Italian and as you're also claiming basic fluency in both French and Italian you should have recognised the form. No problem in the first instance: If one does ...., then one will .... By the way, "to loose weight" is not reflexive in Spanish, it's plain "adelgazar". And "se adelgaza" does not mean "You (usted) slim yourself" but "one (impersonal, general) loses weight" The second sentence is trickier but does make sense: If 'one' drives like a madman 'one' will be given a fine (passive voice). Except that the English sentence doesn't say that, it states: If 'one' ... then 'they' will give (active voice) 'one' a fine. Now 'one' in English can be subject or object, but Spanish impersonal 'se' can only be used as subject. So we have to change the subject from "'they' will give a fine" to active construction "'one' will receive a fine" (with said passive meaning "'one' will be given a fine"). Or else we have to use in its stead a different pronoun, for instance the informal 2nd person singular form with the impersonal meaning of 'one'. This is of course an impersonal (general, unspecified) "you", as used in other languages as well, Russian for instance. Edited by charlmartell on 21 June 2009 at 3:22pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| TheBiscuit Tetraglot Senior Member Mexico Joined 5922 days ago 532 posts - 619 votes Speaks: English*, French, Spanish, Italian Studies: German, Croatian | Message 4 of 15 21 June 2009 at 4:02pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Yes, be careful what you're calling passive in Spanish as it more often than not replaces the passive in English.
Se dice que - It is said that Se puede hacerlo así - It can be done like that or as the others have pointed out 'One can do it like that'. If you want something similar to English you can use uno in the the same way you use one in English - si uno maneja como loco... if one drives like a nut. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
 Hencke Tetraglot Moderator Spain Joined 6893 days ago 2340 posts - 2444 votes Speaks: Swedish*, Finnish, EnglishC2, Spanish Studies: Mandarin Personal Language Map | Message 5 of 15 21 June 2009 at 4:29pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
There is something not quite right with this sentence, with the reflexive-passive construction in the first half and second person singular in the second half. Changing te to le does not improve things. If we analyse that phrase carefully, it is actually saying that if ANYONE drives like a madman, (if any mad driving is taking place) then YOU (the listener) will be fined. The person guilty of careless driving is not fined. Somebody else is. This will not be any different whether we use "tu" or "usted" to address the listener. The second half of the sentence needs a bit of restructuring to make it agree with the first half and talk about the same thing: "Si se conduce como un loco, se le dará una multa" (or: "se le multará", "se producirá una multa") Edited by Hencke on 21 June 2009 at 4:30pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| charlmartell Super Polyglot Senior Member Portugal Joined 6243 days ago 286 posts - 298 votes Speaks: French, English, German, Luxembourgish*, Spanish, Portuguese, Russian, Dutch, Italian, Latin, Ancient Greek Studies: Mandarin, Japanese | Message 6 of 15 21 June 2009 at 4:29pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
In which case you can of course keep the "uno" as object pronoun "a uno" coupled of course with "le": Si uno maneja como un loco, le darán a uno una multa. Si uno maneja como un loco, se le dará a uno una multa. Correct, but very pedestrian. I personally would do it the English way: Si manejas como un loco, te darán una multa. Or, as I said before, to make it crystal clear that we're stating a general fact (or a personal "see, told you so" rebuke after a fine has been imposed): Si se maneja como un loco, se coge una multa. Edited by charlmartell on 21 June 2009 at 4:55pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Kaylalyak Newbie United States Joined 5675 days ago 9 posts - 9 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Latin, Spanish | Message 7 of 15 21 June 2009 at 7:07pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Thanks everyone for the prompt and thoughtful responses! They've been very helpful to clear this topic up and much appreciated.
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| Javi Senior Member Spain Joined 5980 days ago 419 posts - 548 votes Speaks: Spanish* | Message 8 of 15 22 June 2009 at 5:49pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
Exactly, they are not passive, neither in English nor in Spanish: Dicen que los gatos son buenas mascotas. Deberías mirar a ambos lados antes de cruzar la calle.
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