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 Language Learning Forum : Questions About Your Target Languages |  | |
| tuffy Triglot Senior Member Netherlands Joined 7036 days ago 1394 posts - 1412 votes  Speaks: Dutch*, English, German Studies: Spanish | Message 1 of 15 28 November 2005 at 7:20pm | IP Logged | ||
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I always hear everybody say por faVor, with a normal English/Dutch V/F sound. But I know that that V should be pronunced as a soft B. So why is it that I can hardly hear a B in this word? In other words like for instance "viernes" it's very clear that there is a b sound. I try to pronunce the (soft!) b in por favor but no matter how soft I make that b, I sound different than everybody else it seems :-)
Can anybody explain this? And how should I proununce it? Simply speak an F afterall in this case?? Tuffy 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| ElComadreja Senior Member Philippines bibletranslatio Joined 7240 days ago 683 posts - 757 votes 2 sounds Speaks: English* Studies: Spanish, Portuguese, Latin, Ancient Greek, Biblical Hebrew, Cebuano, French, Tagalog | Message 2 of 15 28 November 2005 at 9:21pm | IP Logged | ||
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As far as Spanish goes, I've noticed b's and v's being said in different ways and no native speakers seem to notice. I wouldn't worry too much about this point.
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| frenkeld Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 6945 days ago 2042 posts - 2719 votes Speaks: Russian*, English Studies: German | Message 3 of 15 28 November 2005 at 11:21pm | IP Logged | ||
I found the following explanation helpful: "b and v represent /b/, which has two variants, according to position in the phrase: [b], [b]. These do not depend on spelling, which goes back centuries to the Latin. Either letter represents [b] at the beginning of a breath group or when preceeded by [m] (spelled either m or n), and is much like English /b/. Examples: bomba, burro, en vez de, vine, invierno. In spite of spelling, the last three examples are [embézde], [bíne], [imbjérno]. Either letter represents [b] in all other situations. English has no equivalent. It is a /b/ with the lips slightly open. Examples: haba, uva, Cuba, la vaca, habla, la barba." Note 1: This is taken from very helpful introductory material to the otherwise quite second-rate University of Chicago Spanish Dictionary, where also very brief, but helpful, pointers are given on how Spanish varies from country to country. Note 2: I am also under the impression that the extent to which the soft Spanish b/v sounds a bit more like b or v also seems to depend on a country. It seems a bit more energetic and b-like in Spain, and softer and a bit more v-like in parts of Latin America, but this is more of my own speculation. Although I may have seen this mentioned somewhere, I can't guarantee it. Edited by frenkeld on 29 November 2005 at 12:11pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| tuffy Triglot Senior Member Netherlands Joined 7036 days ago 1394 posts - 1412 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, German Studies: Spanish | Message 4 of 15 29 November 2005 at 2:06am | IP Logged | ||
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Thanks. Unfortunately though I still don't understand the difference with this specific word, the text only mentions the existence of that V/B pronunciation in general (if I read it correctly that is).
And there are diffences between the countries but this has something to do with 1 word which seems different (to me) than the rest. Because other words do have that typical B sound, uttered by the same speakers. Maybe it has something to do with the fact that the V is between two vowels (favor)? That when a V is between 2 vowels that it's b-sound is much less strong and more like a normal v? Maybe it's not very important but this is a much used word and I'd like to pronunce it well :) Mainly because it helps the fluency as a whole.. when I 'stumble' on a word because I'm not sure how to pronunce it, the whole sentence slows down. May aim is fluency as much as possible. Edited by tuffy on 29 November 2005 at 2:10am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Andy E Triglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 7105 days ago 1651 posts - 1939 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, French | Message 5 of 15 29 November 2005 at 2:53am | IP Logged | ||
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Tuffy,
I too had great trouble getting to grips with B-V pronunciation and it was an article (link below) on the Champs Elysées site that I found a few years ago that helped the most. There is some extremely useful info in this article generally but specifically in your case try and read the part entitled B-V Phonetics. The Spanish Pronunciation Guide. Andy. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| tuffy Triglot Senior Member Netherlands Joined 7036 days ago 1394 posts - 1412 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, German Studies: Spanish | Message 6 of 15 29 November 2005 at 7:31am | IP Logged | ||
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Wow, he writes a lot of stuff with some difficult words :) But I will save and re-read it a couple of times. This will be very useful I'm sure! Thanks.
Tuffy 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| frenkeld Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 6945 days ago 2042 posts - 2719 votes Speaks: Russian*, English Studies: German | Message 7 of 15 29 November 2005 at 12:18pm | IP Logged | ||
That is indeed pretty close to what they are saying, that the sound is b-like in the beginning of the word (which explains your example of "viernes"), or after the "m" sound. Otherwise, the pronunciation is more v-like, including between two vowels, as in "favor". The only caveat is that if, for example, a definite article "la" preceeds a word starting with "v" (as in "la vaca"), in fast speech the beginning letter "v" effectively gets sandwiched between two vowels, weakening its "b" sound quality towards the "v" sound. That's why they talk about the beginning of a "breath group", instead of simply the beginning of a word. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| tuffy Triglot Senior Member Netherlands Joined 7036 days ago 1394 posts - 1412 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, German Studies: Spanish | Message 8 of 15 29 November 2005 at 2:20pm | IP Logged | ||
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Ah ok Frenkeld!
I recognise that la thing you wrote. When I read your sentence I heard myself saying it softer too :) But so then "por favor" is pronunced like a VERY soft b or like a real hard v or f? Edited by tuffy on 29 November 2005 at 2:21pm 1 person has voted this message useful |
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