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La and Maria - wordorders | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Questions About Your Target Languages |  | |
| tuffy Triglot Senior Member Netherlands Joined 7036 days ago 1394 posts - 1412 votes  Speaks: Dutch*, English, German Studies: Spanish | Message 1 of 8 10 October 2005 at 2:00am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Is it true, and when yes why, that in Spanish lo(it) always comes at the very beginning of a sentence?
And when talking directly about the person or object, you place it at the end of the sentence? Example: La he visto (I have seen her) He visto a Maria (I have seen Maria) I thought you could folow the English word sequence in general but clearly that doesn't apply to "la/lo". Or could you also say: "He visto la?" That would make it much easier but in Pimsleur they always put lo first, at the beginning of the sentece. This takes some getting used to I gues but I would like to know for sure what the rules are for this. p.s. no grammar words please, try to explain using examples or non-grammar words to describe it. Otherwise I won't understand :) Edited by tuffy on 10 October 2005 at 2:24am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Andy E Triglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 7105 days ago 1651 posts - 1939 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, French | Message 2 of 8 10 October 2005 at 4:53am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Tuffy,
Well, I'll try and explain this without too much grammar.... Where pronouns (i.e. things that stand in place of nouns like Maria, the book, the table etc.) like la, lo, le, se, me are placed depends. Pronouns are placed in front of verb forms which can stand alone and are not commands: veo a Maria = I see Maria la veo = I see her la hé visto = I have seen her veo a Juan = I see Juan lo veo = I see him lo hé visto = I have seen him Pronouns are placed after verbs forms that are commands: ¡abre la puerta! = open the door! ¡abrela! = open it! (note that in writing the pronoun is actually attached to the verb form) Pronouns are placed after phrases like "in order to", "before", "after": para hacerlo = in order to do it antes de hacerlo = before doing it después de hacerlo = after doing it Pronouns can often be placed before or after verb forms like the following: ¿me puede ayudar? = ¿puede ayudarme? = can you help me? cuándo voy a ver la película = when I go to see the film cuándo la voy a ver = cuándo voy a verla = when I go to see it This is by no means an exhaustive explanation but where you see things that don't seem to match what Ive outlined above, feel free to post. Andy. P.S. Here's a grammatical explanation of pronoun placement if you're interested: Clitic placement is proclitical (before) for finite verbs forms (with the expection of the imperative) and enclitical (after) for non-finite verbs forms plus the imperative. Note: That the use of the auxiliary haber + past particple is considered a finite verb form. Clitic promotion (it moves to the front) may also occur where the pronoun is functioning as the direct or indirect object of an inifitive or gerund in which case the pronoun may be attached to either the preceeding finite verb form or the infinitive/gerund. However, such promotion does not usually happen where the infinitive clause is final, causal or temporal or the gerund clause is modifying the preceeding finite verb. ...there's probably some more but can't think of it at the mo'.... 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| tuffy Triglot Senior Member Netherlands Joined 7036 days ago 1394 posts - 1412 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, German Studies: Spanish | Message 3 of 8 10 October 2005 at 8:46am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Thanks Andy.
It makes some sence to me when reading it carefully a couple of times. I will save it and re-read it. This way it's possible for me to understand and learn I think, many thanks!! I have noticed that these things are handy to know, they do make learning and speaking easier. Then when you forget something, you can use grammar to re-compile the forgotten sentence so to speak. But I'm also glad that there are many sentences now I don't think about anymore, I just say them. All in all I'm beginning to believe I can learn Spanish. Maybe not in a year but in 2 years I should be able to say Hola :-) This forum is a great aid by the way! Edited by tuffy on 10 October 2005 at 8:51am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| brandon Tetraglot Groupie United States Joined 7049 days ago 54 posts - 55 votes Speaks: English*, German, Spanish, French Studies: Dutch, Swedish, Italian | Message 4 of 8 10 October 2005 at 9:30am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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I think an easy way to remember where the objects are placed is to note the following... you have an option of placing the object in front of a conjugated verb or the end of an infinitive. The exception would be commands. So, if there is a conjugated verb, the object is in front. If there's a conjugated verb and an infinitive, you have a choice. If there is just an infitive (ie para buscarlo) the object is at the end.
Hope this helps! 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| morprussell Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 7165 days ago 272 posts - 285 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: French | Message 5 of 8 10 October 2005 at 12:50pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
Good explanation AndyE. Can I just make two corrections (small ones)?
“he” is written without an accent. And
“ábrela” has an accent on the first “a”. Here is another place you can use a pronoun before or after the verb form. This is the “ing” ending in English. “I am working”, “He is eating”, “They are talking”. Here is an example. If someone asks, ¿Dónde está el vino? (Where is the wine?) You can answer, Estoy bebiéndolo. (I am drinking it) Or Lo estoy bebiendo. (I am drinking it) You can choose where you want to put the pronoun, although you will find that one way is more natural. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Andy E Triglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 7105 days ago 1651 posts - 1939 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, French | Message 6 of 8 11 October 2005 at 3:02am | IP Logged | ||||||||
You are of course completely correct and I have absolutely no idea why I decided to put an accent there.
Ah yes, one of my usual and continuous mistakes with clitics. I do the same thing with gerunds as well. In writing I'm forever forgetting about retaining the stress pattern of the root whereas I don't seem to have a problem with it in speaking.
Yes, I find the pronoun in gerund constructions (and inifitive forms as well) "sits" better for me at the end - possibly because it more closely matches English word order. Muchas gracias por su ayuda. Also, I knew I'd forgotten a couple of things in my first post relating to the imperative + clitics. It's: ¡vaya a verlo = go and see him! not: * ¡vayalo a ver! In addition, clitics are only enclitical (behind) in affirmative imperatives but are proclitical (front) in the negative: ¡dígame! = tell me! in contrast to: ¡no me diga! = don't tell me! Andy. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| czech Senior Member United States Joined 7196 days ago 395 posts - 378 votes Studies: English* | Message 7 of 8 11 October 2005 at 3:36pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Tuffy,
I learned this quite a while ago and the thinking part of it wore off with in a week or so, so it is easy to get used to. Good Luck! 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| tuffy Triglot Senior Member Netherlands Joined 7036 days ago 1394 posts - 1412 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, German Studies: Spanish | Message 8 of 8 12 October 2005 at 4:40pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Thanks all!
This is very helpful indeed. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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