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ayudar(le) (Spanish) | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Questions About Your Target Languages |  | |
| morprussell Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 7165 days ago 272 posts - 285 votes  Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: French | Message 9 of 26 20 October 2005 at 1:39am | IP Logged | |||||
Thanks for the corrections Patuco. Maybe you can help me with a few questions. I can't recall ever seeing an object pronoun change from direct to indirect simply because "usted" is used instead of "él/ella". In the first correction you used "le" for the polite usted. In the following examples you used "lo" and "la" for "him" and "her". If possible, can you explain the reason for using indirect object pronoun when using "usted" but a direct object pronoun with "él/ella"? Don't worry if you can't give me a specific reason, I can't explain most of the English I use. Also, Is this change unique to certain verbs (such as ayudar), or does it always happen? If it always happens then I have somehow managed to overlook this. I hope this isn't the case. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Andy E Triglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 7105 days ago 1651 posts - 1939 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, French | Message 10 of 26 20 October 2005 at 3:09am | IP Logged | |||||
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Well leísmo would allow
Señor, voy a ayudarle where the 'le' is actually a direct object. However, I recently came across the following throw-away statement in Platiquemos Unit 15: Some verbs may appear only with direct clitics, some only with indirect or reflexive, and some with various combinations. There is some overlap; some verbs may appear with direct or indirect (lo ayudo vs le ayudo, lo espero vs le espero, lo llamo vs le llamo) I meant to check this in my copy of Butt & Benjamin but I forgot :¬(. I'd assumed that this was referring to usage with an infitive clause. i.e. to help someone to do something or to wait for someone to do something where the someone in Spanish is possibly treated as an indirect object. This is just assumption on my part and since I can't check B & B until I get home, if anyone knows anything more please post. patuco should at least be able to clarify his previous post. Andy. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| patuco Diglot Moderator Gibraltar Joined 7017 days ago 3795 posts - 4268 votes Speaks: Spanish, English* Personal Language Map | Message 11 of 26 20 October 2005 at 10:24am | IP Logged | |||||
I can try, but I don't know how successful I'll be!
I afraid that I won't be much help at all with grammar. I know next to no grammar since I learned English and Spanish as mother tongues while growing up. We were never taught grammar of any kind in school. I personally believe that grammar is not absolutely essential for learning a language, which is why I prefer listening to target language material initially, then reading till your eyes drop out. Anyway, I digress. I know what a pronoun is, but I don't know when to use the direct or indirect. When I read those sentences, I just visualised what I would say then I wrote it down. I can only offer the following (limited) explanation: When dealing with someone you don't know (or someone who is older than you, although this is not as common nowadays), I've always used the polite form. So, if you are telling a stranger that you are going to help him or her, Voy a ayudarle = I am going to help you However, if you're telling your friend that you are going to help a man, Voy a ayudarlo = I'm going to help him If you're telling your friend that you're going to help a woman, Voy a ayudarla = I'm going to help her The difference occurs depending on who you are addressing, i.e. a stranger directly or your friend referring to a stranger. As for other verbs which follow this pattern, I've opened my dictionary at a couple of random pages and come up with the following: Pagar = to pay Voy a pagarle = I'm going to pay you (polite) Voy a pagarte = I'm going to pay you (informal) Voy a pagarlo = I'm going to pay for it Coger = to catch Voy a cogerle = I'm going to catch you (polite) Voy a cogerte = I'm going to catch you (informal) Voy a cogerlo = I'm going to catch him/it Voy a cogerla = I'm going to catch her If this is more confusing, I apologize. Edited by patuco on 20 October 2005 at 2:34pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| cbashara Senior Member United States adventuresinspanish. Joined 7131 days ago 186 posts - 188 votes 1 sounds Speaks: English* Studies: Spanish | Message 12 of 26 20 October 2005 at 2:42pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Patuco -- Makes sense to me! Thanks for the information. I know it is very hard to explain the grammar of your mother tongue! I do it everyday with the students that I tutor and I still struggle. Sometimes I just want to say, It's that way just because! LOL! Pronouns are tricky in any language! I think this is definitely one of my sticking points in Spanish. I feel like I could just get over the pronoun hump I could be on my way to fluency!
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| Andy E Triglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 7105 days ago 1651 posts - 1939 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, French | Message 13 of 26 21 October 2005 at 3:23am | IP Logged | |||||
Well, I checked B & B last night and it turns out that this usage of le as a direct object pronoun in place of usted is - as patuco has stated - a way of indicating respect and politeness. It is apparently very common in parts of Spain. Apparently the Gramática descriptiva de la Lengua Española (a 3 volume exhaustive analysis of the language in current use) also notes its use in several Latin-American countries. B & B devote an entire chapter to the regional differences on the 3rd person object pronouns and there are lots of them! They indicate that foreign students are best sticking with the basic forms that we're all already aware of but it should also be noted that native Spanish speakers may well find the usage "odd" if it differs from what's prevalent in that region. As patuco has already said consistent use of leísmo will have you labelled as "posh" where he comes from whereas not using it in other areas may well label your Spanish as not quite castizo. They also have a caveat against the tendency for foreign English-speaking students to want to stick rigid direct and indirect object labels onto Spanish constructions where the distinction is much less apparent or indeed valid as far as native speakers are concerned. Andy. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| dadafeig Diglot Groupie United States Joined 6988 days ago 82 posts - 83 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: German, Dutch | Message 14 of 26 21 October 2005 at 7:26pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Man this thread really cleared up a lot of the questions I had on pronouns.
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| morprussell Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 7165 days ago 272 posts - 285 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: French | Message 15 of 26 23 October 2005 at 12:52pm | IP Logged | |||||
I checked with my Spanish professor the other day. She told me that the use of "le" as a direct object pronoun is usually only done in Spain. I was very relieved to hear this since it meant I didn't overlook something so big up till now. I'm glad this topic came up though, now I can add another difference between Latin American Spanish and Spain Spanish to my mental list. So it sounds like outside of Spain the proper way to say the sentence is, Voy a ayudarlo = I'm going to help you (Usted). AndyE - Would you recommend the B&B book? 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| KingM Triglot Senior Member michaelwallaceauthor Joined 7193 days ago 275 posts - 300 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, French Studies: Russian | Message 16 of 26 23 October 2005 at 2:35pm | IP Logged | |||||
Ten mucho, pero mucho cuidado en donde dices eso. Because of course, coger means quite another thing in certain countries. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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