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Chinese and Japanese stroke orders | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| The_Tomato Diglot Newbie SwedenRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 6007 days ago 3 posts - 3 votes Speaks: Swedish*, English Studies: Japanese, Mandarin | Message 1 of 4 07 May 2009 at 3:42pm | IP Logged |
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I have a question that I feel is really important to me, since I am studying both Japanese and Mandarin Chinese actively. Therefore, I would really appreciate all your views and opinions on this matter.
When I study characters, I would really like to get the stroke order correct from the start. If I learn to write characters with incorrect stroke orders, there will be a lot of work in order to relearn it afterwards. "Old habits die hard", as they say. All books on characters that I am using in my studies often emphasizes the great importance of writing the characters with the right stroke order. So there is no question about it; I should absolutely pay attention to the stroke order as I learn the characters. The same goes for both kanji and hanzi. As you surely know, many characters are the same in Japanese and Chinese. An example would be the simplified version of "country", which is the same in Japanese; 国 But it seems like there are some slightly different standards between kanji and hanzi when it comes to stroke order. For example, the 王 part of the 国 should be written, according to basically all resources I have consulted, in the following manner: Japanese: Top horizontal, vertical, middle horizontal, lower horizontal Chinese: Top horizontal, middle horizontal, vertical, lower horizontal Are there really different standards for the characters in Japan and China, when it comes to stroke order? I kind of assume that this is the case, since I've consulted different resources to confirm this. Except for my books, here are two sites that I have been using to look this up. It's a direct link for 国 on both sites: Japanese: http://www.yamasa.cc/members/ocjs/kanjidic.nsf/SortedByKanji 2THEnglish/%E5%9B%BD?OpenDocument Chinese: http://www.yellowbridge.com/chinese/character-stroke-order.p hp?searchChinese=1&zi=%E5%9B%BD I'm first of all wondering; Why are there varieties in the stroke order for the same character, depending on if it's used in Japanese or Chinese? I guess that this kind of difference in stroke order can be seen in many other characters as well. As I have recently discovered this fact, I have really started to wondering about it. What could the reason be behind this? This also puts me in a strange position as a student of both languages. How should I tackle this? When people learn to write characters, they usally sit and write each character a certain number of times, and then review it later to get them into their long-term memory. That's even how Japanese and Chinese kids learn characters in school, right? But they only learn the characters for their own language at that time. But how about me, a student of both languages? Let's say I'm practicing to write a character that's identical in both Japanese and Chinese. Should I write the character with the Japanese stroke order 30 times, then write it with the Chinese stroke order 30 times, then going back to the Chinese version and so on? I mean, that's crazy, right? Because I think that one of the main purposes of writing a character a lot of times is to learn the correct stroke order. Eventually, after writing characters a certain number of times, you will kind of get a sort of "feel" for the stroke order in different characters. But if I practice two different stroke orders at the same time, won't that cause some confusion in my brain? At some point in the future, I want to reach a level where I can just write a character quickly, without having to think about the stroke order. The stroke order will just come naturally, without me having to think about it as I write the character. Since some characters are the same in both Chinese and Japanese, I think it's really benefitial to study these two languages at the same time. If a person knows a lot of kanji, it's easier for that person to learn Chinese writing, I think. And it also works the other way around, of course. I know that Japanese uses some traditional forms of the Chinese characters, and some own forms, but still... To study both these languages can be really benefitial in forms of writing. However, until recently, I have always thought that the stroke orders followed the same basic rules in both Chinese and Japanese. Apparently this is not the case. And... I don't know what to do. Should I strive for always writing each Japanese kanji in the Japanese way with the Japanese stroke order, and writing each Chinese characters with the correct Chinese stroke order? For example, every time I write in Japanese, should I write 国 with the Japanese stroke order, while writing the very same character with the Chinese stroke order when writing in Mandarin Chinese? Or, would it be OK to just choose one of these variants and always stick to that, in order to get the stroke order for the character really burnt into my long term memory, eventually making it possible to write it "automatically" without having to think about the stroke orders? Whether you are a native Chinese speaker, native Japanese speaker, a student of any or both of these languages, or just knows a lot about Chinese characters in general... Please, give me your thoughts and advice. I would highly appreciate it. And especially for those of you who have or are in the middle of studying both Chinese and Japanese; How do you tackle this problem? Do you use the same stroke order in both Japanese and Chinese for the same character, or do you change it depending on which language you are currently writing in? I would love to hear some input on this. Thanks. Oh, and just one last thing. You are welcome to write that the stroke order is of no importance to you at all if you wish. But to me, I feel that it's really important to get it correct from the start, and I will not change my point of view on that matter. "If you're gonna do something, you might as well do it properly". That's my motto. :) (Edit: Fixed the URLs) Edited by The_Tomato on 07 May 2009 at 3:52pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| Turbo Tetraglot Newbie Hong Kong Joined 5722 days ago 18 posts - 18 votes Speaks: Cantonese*, English, French, Mandarin Studies: Spanish, German, Japanese | Message 2 of 4 07 May 2009 at 6:10pm | IP Logged |
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To a certain extent, stroke order is more a matter of aesthetics rather than something of great practical importance. Sure, if you go about writing a character in a completely wrong way, the finished character will look odd and unnatural. On the other hand, there is also room for personal style or preference. No two people, even the greatest calligraphers, will write all the characters in exactly the same way. In fact, when people actually write, many of the strokes will be simplified and/or merged together. So it's not really the case that there is but one single way to write a character properly. What I'd suggest to you to do is to follow whichever style that comes to you more naturally or appeals to you more aesthetically
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| Snowflake Senior Member United States Joined 5961 days ago 1032 posts - 1233 votes  Studies: Mandarin | Message 3 of 4 07 May 2009 at 8:17pm | IP Logged |
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I've found that stroke order affects the aesthetics, as Turbo mentioned. Beyond that, I've encountered character recognition software that expects correct stroke order. So the wrong order can result in the particular word that you're looking for being not found. That is not true for all character recognition software. I've also asked several Mandarin speakers (born/raised in mainland or Taiwan, graduated from university in mainland or Taiwan) as to why stroke order is important. For the most part they felt it was unimportant. One of them commented that some see correct stroke order as an indication of how well educated you are.
Turbo mentions different stroke order for calligraphy. Calligraphy is considered an art and is seen as not bound by the rules of correct stroke order. I can't comment on how some Japanese may see stroke order. Edited by Snowflake on 07 May 2009 at 8:21pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |
 Hencke Tetraglot Moderator Spain Joined 6896 days ago 2340 posts - 2444 votes Speaks: Swedish*, Finnish, EnglishC2, Spanish Studies: Mandarin Personal Language Map | Message 4 of 4 07 May 2009 at 9:17pm | IP Logged |
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The reason usually given, and it makes sense to me, is that once you start getting proficient and develop a naturally flowing "cursive" handwriting style, your handwriting would not be legible to others unless the stroke order was right.
The cursive style has sometimes been described as "written without lifting the pen from the paper between strokes", but actually there is more to it than that, such as various degrees of simplification, some distortion of angles and of the relative dimensions of the component parts etc. These handwritten characters often look nothing at all like the printed hanzi you have been drilling when you study. To the uninitiated they can easily appear as just so many wild random squiggles across the paper. But natives can read them because there is a system to the squiggles, a system that relies heavily on correct stroke order. Without it, they might appear as random squiggles to them too. Conversely, basing your handwriting on correct stroke order will probably contribute to your ability to read native Chinese or Japanese handwriting as well. Unless you are superhuman, I would expect it to be too big a burden to keep track of which stroke order applies in each of the languages. If I were you I'd just choose one of the languages, like the one you feel most drawn to, and apply that order consistently when you practice. On the other hand it is questionable to what extent you actually need the ability to produce, and read, handwritten text in today's world. I have read that many natives, who mainly use computers and other gadgets to communicate, are losing the habit of writing by hand, to the point of forgetting how to write many of the characters. Edited by Hencke on 07 May 2009 at 9:35pm 1 person has voted this message useful |
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