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Russian word order | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| LanguageSponge Triglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5768 days ago 1197 posts - 1487 votes  Speaks: English*, German, French Studies: Welsh, Russian, Japanese, Slovenian, Greek, Italian | Message 1 of 14 23 May 2009 at 6:45pm | IP Logged |
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Всем привет!
I've been learning Russian for a fair while now. I make some grammatical mistakes, but nothing that isn't either a typo or the odd mistake with a case ending, unless an idiom would fit best, in which case, I'm lost :). The scope of what I can talk about isn't particularly impressive (family, friends, hobbies, holidays, my experience with languages and various other really basic topics). I have a fair amount of trouble with word order - I put the various parts in all the correct cases, but a lot of the time not all the other elements are in the right order unless I've learnt the expression beforehand. With French, German, Italian and any other language I've ever learnt, word order is fixed (with the exception of German, although that still has a loose word order pattern of some kind, and I don't have any problems with that at all. Does word order just click for Russian? Or is it something learners have to learn endless rules for? The way I see it, there's no point in learning a language unless you're going to communicate in as natural a way as possible, so I need to get this eventually. Всем спасибо за помощь, объяснения и советы; я очень благодарен. Джек 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| SII Senior Member Russian FederationRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5794 days ago 184 posts - 194 votes Speaks: Russian* Studies: English | Message 2 of 14 23 May 2009 at 8:11pm | IP Logged |
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Word order in Russian is free. For example, these sentences have the same sense:
Этот стол большой. Стол этот большой. Большой стол этот. Большой этот стол. Этот большой стол. Стол большой этот. But, athough the main sense of these sentences is identical ("this table is big"), the shades of sense change with changing of word order. Usually we use the first case: "Этот стол большой". Edited by SII on 23 May 2009 at 8:17pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| cordelia0507 Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5840 days ago 1473 posts - 2176 votes Speaks: Swedish* Studies: German, Russian | Message 3 of 14 23 May 2009 at 8:19pm | IP Logged |
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Is there any logic to how the meaning of the sentence about the table changes depending on the word order? Is it perhaps the first word that is the most important? Or something else..?
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| LanguageSponge Triglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5768 days ago 1197 posts - 1487 votes Speaks: English*, German, French Studies: Welsh, Russian, Japanese, Slovenian, Greek, Italian | Message 4 of 14 23 May 2009 at 9:02pm | IP Logged |
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Cordelia0507, that's what I'm trying to find out here, really. The word order of my sentences seems to be the one thing which is picked up on often in my writing. Occasionally I get picked up on for using a word that doesn't make sense in the context I'm trying to use it in, but most often it's my use of word order that's a mess. In German, we put the word we want to emphasise as early as possible, but in Russian... I have no idea if that works. Even though word order is supposedly free, it's the different meanings behind messing with the word order that I want to understand. Are there patterns?
Thanks for your opinions. Jack 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| SII Senior Member Russian FederationRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5794 days ago 184 posts - 194 votes Speaks: Russian* Studies: English | Message 5 of 14 23 May 2009 at 10:20pm | IP Logged |
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Этот стол большой. -- This is the neutral form. The sentence simply say us about the fact: this table is big.
Стол этот большой. -- In this sentence the logical accent moved to the word "большой", i.e. this means that the table is big, isn't small or medium. Большой стол этот. -- The big table is this table, isn't that or someone else. Большой этот стол. -- Similarly to previous; this form is rare. Стол большой этот. -- Similarly to previous; also may emphasize the word "стол" too. This form is rare. Этот большой стол. -- Really this form uses in more complex sentences than this one, for example: Этот большой стол - обеденный (This big table is the dining table). In speech language the logical accent is expressed by intonation; the word order has the little importance. In written language intonation is absent, therefore it is need to use unusual word order and/or additional words (Большой стол этот = Большой стол именно этот; Стол этот большой = Этот стол действительно большой). Foreigners who learn Russian must pay the great attention to word's forms (particularly to endings). If you use the incorrect ending, all the sentence may be absolutely incomprehensible. The poor word order make all the sentence illegal very rare. But when you will have learned Russian cases and tenses really good and don't make mistakes with them, you must begin to form "language intuition" about the best word order in different situations. 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| cordelia0507 Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5840 days ago 1473 posts - 2176 votes Speaks: Swedish* Studies: German, Russian | Message 6 of 14 23 May 2009 at 10:46pm | IP Logged |
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Good explanation, I think I get it!
Now that I am aware of this I will pay more attention to what word order is used, in which context. I've heard this sentence a lot "the word order is free in Russian" but I've never heard a good explanation about it. The word endings that you are talking about is the most difficult thing about Russian I think. It makes me feel reluctant to try speaking! What about all the non-native Russian speakers that live/work in Russia - do they usually use the right word endings? Edited by cordelia0507 on 23 May 2009 at 10:51pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| LanguageSponge Triglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5768 days ago 1197 posts - 1487 votes Speaks: English*, German, French Studies: Welsh, Russian, Japanese, Slovenian, Greek, Italian | Message 8 of 14 24 May 2009 at 10:03am | IP Logged |
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Thanks for the article, Humbert, it turned out to be very useful. It seemed to help me understand, even if not specifically with regard to Russian, how word order in topicalisation is supposed to work.
Merci beaucoup de ton aide :) Jack 1 person has voted this message useful |
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