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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| Maximus Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 6747 days ago 417 posts - 427 votes  Studies: Spanish, Japanese, Thai | Message 1 of 7 15 April 2009 at 9:12pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Just out of curiosity, does anyone else studying Japanese feel that the amount of katakanized foreign loan words entering the language is just getting ridiculous?
Of course, I have heared of language conservatives who even refuse to say アメリカ (amerika) and instead only use the Sino-Japanese equivilant word 米国 (beikoku). Though I can understand their feelings, my policy is to use only the "reasonable" katakana foreign import words. I use them to sound natural as opposed to overly formal. The reasonable foreign import words are, in my opinion, the internationalisms like ホテル (hotel), ヘビーメタル (heavy metal), ケイキ (cake), サッカー (soccer), et cetera. However, there are cases nowdays when these kinds of loan words, most of them from English, are used just for the sake of it. When there is a perfectly good Japanese word in its place, or even several, using a foreign import word just seems silly. For example I have even heared ピュア for pure. But there are already many good words of Sino-Japanese origin to express pure all with a slightly different nuance. For example 純粋, 清浄, 清純 (more like the niave purity of a person). These are all of Sino-Japanese origin. On top of that, there is also 清い, another word of native Japanese origin. Also I am awre that the traditional word for auditory comprehension in the context of language learning (聴解 pronounced choukai) has now been replaced by リスニング (pronounced risuningu - listening). I could give countless examples of other situations when a foreign import word is used in place of some other perfectly good Japanese words. Of course when the foreign import word has entered the Japanese language just for the sake of it, I of course will only use the perfectly good alreading existing Sino-Japanese or native Japanese loan word. Am I the only one who finds the recent increase of foreign loan words annoying and ridiculous? By the way, what is the point of using them? Do they have a particular purpose or benefit? I personally think that they are starting to slightly ruin this great and nobel language. When I open a text from the Heian period and start to read it, there is just something satisfying about reading with the absense of silly foreign loan words like インサートする (to insert, pronounsed insaato suru) instead of the proper Japanese word equivalent 挿入する (pronounced sounyuu suru). un-butchered, undefiled Heian Japanese is so awesome. When I go to Japan again, everytime I encounter a Japanese person speaking using an excess of loan words, I might just start speaking using Heian japanese grammar and archaic vocabulary! :) Back to the point of why use them? Are the similar to French words in English? Do Japanese people use them abuntantly just because they think of themselves as more cultured and perhaps more intellectual by doing so? Are they used for such pretentious reason? Or is it just more fetishization of the English language? I get the feeling that English is so fetishized in Japan as more and more shops write their names with Romaji and bits of butchered English language seems to be used frequently in advertisements just for the sake of it, or just to sound cool and dudy. Or may it perhaps be 西洋崇拝主義 (worship or admiration of Western cultures)? May it be the case that them use more and more foreign loanwords because of feelings of inadequacy? It seems like nowdays everyone want to be American and fascinated with American pop culture. Am I the only one who feels that these kind of alien words are ruining the Japanese language and are completely ridiculous? Edited by Maximus on 15 April 2009 at 9:20pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Sunja Diglot Senior Member Germany Joined 6083 days ago 2020 posts - 2295 votes 1 sounds Speaks: English*, German Studies: French, Mandarin | Message 2 of 7 16 April 2009 at 8:58am | IP Logged | ||||||||
Hi Maximus, I haven't achieved your reading level yet, but I do "dabble" in a bit of reading and I've come across an unusually high amount of English loan words. All magazines and anything and everything having to do with media and promotion will use more westernized forms of speak -- for attention. Maybe they use リスニング in learning languages/linguistics because of the origin of some research? It's similar to how syndroms are referenced in other languages. If it has to do with learning English then, well, that explains it right there.. As for the use of katakana, I've recognized "ギリ" instead of 義理 and it was used as a prefix for ironic emphasis. I've also come across ホット一息 "a breather", "to take a small rest". They would normally use ほっと, but I understand it was put in katakana for mild emphasis, similar to English italics. It must be common, because my reading is limited (Internet, magazine articles) and I see it quite a bit. I think it helps to promote an idea -- makes that idea stand out. German business is notorious for their use of English. It gets to the point where you're not sure if promoters are speaking their language or speaking in English. It's interesting because cultural references are different. Sometimes when the Germans use "happy" I wonder, "Are they being flippant, cool, sarcastic...?" It --sounds -- a tad quirky in a German sentence and maybe that's why they use it. Maybe they say "Stop-and-go" instead of "stoppender Verkehr" because it fits in with the rhythym of what they're saying. It is often faster for Germans to use Englisch, especially in broadcasting where "Timing" plays a crucial element. You're obviously getting to the point of really being able to enjoy Japanese for what it is and it's aggravating to see it (often) dumbed down. Perhaps it's not just a for reasons of dumbing down, perhaps the media in Japan has other reasons for using loan words, like that of what I just mentioned?
In speaking of the average person...they may feel hip perhaps, but more intellectual? Would others really be impressed if they heard it? I guess it depends on where and when you use them. I think loan words could work great with sarcasm or irony. I recognize it often with German, especially written (blogs, editorials) less in spoken German. Loan words get adopted into another culture, but again, they don't use the words the way we would. They take on a whole new reference sometimes.
I'm sure gimmick plays a big part in the phenomena. I can only observe and don't have much "field experience". Are you able to ask these questions when you go to Japan? I'm sure there are really interesting cultural ideosyncracies but I'll have to give it up to someone else to hear about them! :) Edited by Sunja on 16 April 2009 at 10:26am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| ericspinelli Diglot Senior Member Japan Joined 5781 days ago 249 posts - 493 votes Speaks: English*, Japanese Studies: Korean, Italian | Message 3 of 7 16 April 2009 at 4:00pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
Not I. How long ago and from which language it was adopted or what script it is written is of much less concern that how well it conveys the thoughts and ideas of the author/speaker.
You certainly aren't. If you spend enough time on Japanese language forums you'll see this sort of discussion come and go. Here is one such thread. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Maximus Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 6747 days ago 417 posts - 427 votes Studies: Spanish, Japanese, Thai | Message 4 of 7 16 April 2009 at 11:52pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
First of all thanks for the link. On the idea of the author conveying his/her though, I am yet to be convinced that words of gairaigo have any more ability to convey the message than some already existing perfectly good word of native Japanese or Sino-Japanese origin. Only if there is a special need to express a concept that only exists in another culture do I see it absolutely necessary to have a gairaigo word for it. Most of the time gairaigo is just used for the sake of it. Chinese authors don't have problems conveying their messages do they? Heian Japanese didn't exactly lack expressiveness did it? As for the understanding of foreign import words from the west, which is something related to conveying one's message, I don't believe than they are any easier to understand in the majority of cases. I liked the idea of "calques" as the guy from the linked site put in. If any new concepts were to be introduced to the language, at least if they were to be introduced as new words made up of kanji compounds, in other words "calques", their meaning would most likely be recognized immediately by Japanese people unfamilar with any western languages. I sometimes find Gairaigo more difficult to read and would almost always prefer a kanji compound in its place. Like I have mentioned before, if a certain foreign import word really has to be there and is of much more benefit than any traditional word, then fair enough. However, when there for the sake of it, most of them seem forced. I see people have argued that the introduction of Sino-Japanese words was yet again another "contamination" of the language and so criticizing the use of modern gairaigo is absurd. I don't agree. The Japanese writing system came from China. Before Kanji, I don't beleive that there was any known writing system for the Japanese language. The introduction of Chinese characters, and as a consequence, Sino-Japanese vocabulary, was of great benefit to the language in my opinion because a character based writing system has many benefits which an alphabet doesn't have. Distinguishing between homophones is one. Also at a later time, European loanwords, especially from German entered the language. These had a purpose. They expressed new scientific concepts. It could be argued that there was a need to import them as science in Europe was progressing rapidly. However, this contrasts to most recent times. Now days these new words of western origin are not being used to describe some newly discovered concrete scientific concept. They are being used just to replace already existing ordinary everyday words with no reason to do so. It is this kind of foreign importation which I believe doesn't benefit the language. On a more general level, although I understand that languages must be flexible to some degree to keep up with new concepts, inventions, et cetera, I also see great benefits in preserving any given language as much as possible. By doing so, people can still read the classics without too much trouble. Similarly, a body which regulates, maintains a stardard and imposes restrictions on the use of language is a good idea in my opinion. In the case of widely spoken languages, ensuring that the language doesn't break up and drift away into many inintelligible languages is something that requires control and conservation. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Sunja Diglot Senior Member Germany Joined 6083 days ago 2020 posts - 2295 votes 1 sounds Speaks: English*, German Studies: French, Mandarin | Message 5 of 7 17 April 2009 at 10:37am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Do you think Japanese is being replaced? As to a standard, don't writers keep up the standard in the language? They are supposedly the ones who know it best.
Those students entering college would know it too, wouldn't they? I read about 受験戦争 (examination hell) and how intense competition is for those entering the university system. Apparantly how a person performs can affect their social status greatly. I assume one can't get by on just reading manga. I also understand students have to take classes in the old Japanese language (the term escapes me). Maybe all these loan words are just an annoying trend? It's nice that the language is so vast. It gives people a choice. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| minus273 Triglot Senior Member France Joined 5763 days ago 288 posts - 346 votes Speaks: Mandarin*, EnglishC2, French Studies: Ancient Greek, Tibetan | Message 6 of 7 29 April 2009 at 11:11am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Sino-Japanese words are too unintelligible orally, I guess, every Kanji seems to be pronounced something like kou or tai or chou.
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| jimbo baby! Senior Member United States Joined 5975 days ago 202 posts - 208 votes 2 sounds Speaks: English* | Message 7 of 7 01 May 2009 at 9:06am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Unfortunately this is happening with many languages. American culture permeates other cultures and as a result many Americanisms are adopted in foreign countries. People think it's the hip thing to do. Oftentimes they sound ridiculous, like they're trying too hard to sound cool. If someone uses an English loanword when speaking to you please smack that person. That is how conditioning works and it should help them overcome this fetish with American culture.
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