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Language Learning Forum : Language Programs, Books & Tapes

23 messages over 3 pages: 1 2 3 Next >>

Darobat
Diglot
Senior Member
Joined 6978 days ago
754 posts - 770 votes

Speaks: English*, Russian
Studies: Latin

Message 9 of 23

11 August 2005 at 9:37am | IP Logged

I agree with Susaku and Kyle. I will not buy a book unless it uses the native script. Even if its everything in the native script and some sort of romanization, as long as the native script is present.

I found a Japanese grammar website (see the links and internet resources page. I posted it there), that supports my belief 100%.

Quote:

The problem with conventional textbooks is that they often have the following goals.

   1. They want readers to be able to use functional and polite Japanese as quickly as possible.
   2. They don't want to scare readers away with terrifying Japanese script and Chinese characters.
   3. They want to teach you how to say English phrases in Japanese.

Traditionally with romance languages such as Spanish, these goals presented no problems or were nonexistent due to the similarities to English. However, because Japanese is different in just about every way down to the fundamental ways of thinking, these goals create many of the confusing textbooks you see on the market today. They are usually filled with complicated rules and countless number of grammar for specific English phrases. They also contain almost no kanji and so when you finally arrive in Japan, lo and behold, you discover you can't read menus, maps, or essentially anything at all because the book decided you weren't smart enough to memorize Chinese characters.

The root of this problem lies in the fact that these textbooks try to teach you Japanese with English. They want to teach you on the first page how to say, "Hi, my name is Smith," but they don't tell you about all the arbitrary decisions that were made behind your back. They probably decided to use the polite form even though learning the polite form before the dictionary form makes no sense. They also might have decided to include the subject even though it's not necessary and excluded most of the time. In fact, the most common way to say something like "My name is Smith" in Japanese is to say "am Smith". That's because most of the information is understood from the context and is therefore excluded. But does the textbook explain the way things work in Japanese fundamentally? No, because they're too busy trying to push you out the door with "useful" phrases right off the bat. The result is a confusing mess of "use this if you want to say this" type of text and the reader is left with a feeling of confusion about how things actually work.

The solution to this problem is to explain Japanese from a Japanese point of view. Take Japanese and explain how it works and forget about trying to force what you want to say in English into Japanese. To go along with this, it is also important to explain things in an order that makes sense in Japanese. If you need to know [A] in order to understand [B], don't cover [B] first just because you want to teach a certain phrase.

Essentially, what we need is a Japanese guide to learning Japanese grammar.

Edited by Darobat on 11 August 2005 at 9:40am
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randy310
Senior Member
United States
Joined 6855 days ago
117 posts - 117 votes

Speaks: English*

Message 10 of 23

11 August 2005 at 12:35pm | IP Logged

Darobat, you know quite a bit about Japanese but you do not have it in your profile? What you say does make sense. What materials would you suggest for self study?
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timinstl
Triglot
Groupie
United States
timsviajes.com
Joined 6907 days ago
88 posts - 92 votes

Speaks: English*, Spanish, French
Studies: Italian, Mandarin

Message 11 of 23

11 August 2005 at 12:37pm | IP Logged

I agree with Randy310, If you are a self study, then the characters won't help with pronunciation anyway. It's better to see the words written in a phonetic alphabet. As far as asking a native for help, usually you can use the word in a sentence and they can correct your pronunciation. I have completed Pimsleur Mandarin I and am now using some flash cards and some books on Chinese characters to learn how to write what I have already learned to speak. If I come across a word that I think is important, but I haven't learned the word and how to use it, I simply ignore it until later. Its been very effective for me.

Edited by timinstl on 11 August 2005 at 12:41pm
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Shusaku
Senior Member
United States
Joined 6890 days ago
145 posts - 157 votes

1 sounds
Speaks: English*
Studies: Mandarin, Cantonese, Japanese

Message 12 of 23

11 August 2005 at 1:04pm | IP Logged

timinstl wrote:

As far as asking a native for help, usually you can use the word in a sentence and they can correct your pronunciation.

That may work for individual words, but if you want to get someone to record a dialogue for you it is much easier when the native script is used alongside the romanization.

As a side benefit, I've been able to pick up hundreds of Chinese characters simply because they were printed directly below the romanization in my textbooks. It's a great feeling to learn something without even trying!

Edited by Shusaku on 11 August 2005 at 1:06pm
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Darobat
Diglot
Senior Member
Joined 6978 days ago
754 posts - 770 votes

Speaks: English*, Russian
Studies: Latin

Message 13 of 23

11 August 2005 at 1:07pm | IP Logged

randy310 wrote:

Darobat, you know quite a bit about Japanese but you do not have it in your profile? What you say does make sense. What materials would you suggest for self study?

lol, I have never actually studied Japanese. I know a few hiragana and kanji, but thats it. I don't know any grammar and maybe only a few words.
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timinstl
Triglot
Groupie
United States
timsviajes.com
Joined 6907 days ago
88 posts - 92 votes

Speaks: English*, Spanish, French
Studies: Italian, Mandarin

Message 14 of 23

11 August 2005 at 1:38pm | IP Logged

The Living Language Ultimate Mandarin book that I have has some, very little in fact, Chinese Characters. It's useful, but hardly necessary as a beginner. I still agree with Randy310. You learned to speak your first language far before you ever began to learn to read and write it. As you progress in the language, you can then learn to write it. "Speak now, read later" seems like logical progression to me.
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timinstl
Triglot
Groupie
United States
timsviajes.com
Joined 6907 days ago
88 posts - 92 votes

Speaks: English*, Spanish, French
Studies: Italian, Mandarin

Message 15 of 23

11 August 2005 at 1:51pm | IP Logged

"if you want to get someone to record a dialogue for you it is much easier when the native script is used alongside the romanization."

I understand the potential benefit to some learners of having both scripts, but as a beginner, I don't think that it is necessary. I actually think it is an overload of information.

How do you ask this native speaker to record the dialog? Are you asking him/her in his/her native language or is it that he understands English to the point where he can understand the request in English? I would think that he could look at the English translation and put it in to the target language regardless of whether it is in romanji or hanzi or kanji. I have never had a problem with a native speaker not being able to read pin'yin???

Also, one is at an advantage to learn the romanization for typing purposes. My computer takes the pin'yin and translates it in to Simplified or Traditional Chinese.

Edited by timinstl on 11 August 2005 at 1:53pm
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Shusaku
Senior Member
United States
Joined 6890 days ago
145 posts - 157 votes

1 sounds
Speaks: English*
Studies: Mandarin, Cantonese, Japanese

Message 16 of 23

11 August 2005 at 2:01pm | IP Logged

timinstl wrote:

How do you ask this native speaker to record the dialog? Are you asking him/her in his/her native language or is it that he understands English to the point where he can understand the request in English? I would think that he could look at the English translation and put it in to the target language regardless of whether it is in romanji or hanzi or kanji. I have never had a problem with a native speaker not being able to read pin'yin???

I ask in English :) I have a series of Cantonese textbooks which have tons of excellent dialogues but no recorded audio. My wife made over 2 hours worth of MP3's for me of these. It was easy for her to do because the book has Chinese characters right below the romanization. Also, Cantonese has no "standard" for romanization - there are several systems and I've never met a native speaker who can read any of them.

timinstl wrote:

Also, one is at an advantage to learn the romanization for typing purposes. My computer takes the pin'yin and translates it in to Simplified or Traditional Chinese.

I never said we shouldn't learn the romanization, just that it is nice when books include both :)

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