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Pronunciation stunting my progress | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Advice Center |  | |
| Crush Tetraglot Senior Member ChinaRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5685 days ago 1622 posts - 2299 votes  Speaks: English*, Spanish, Mandarin, Esperanto Studies: Basque | Message 1 of 7 03 November 2008 at 4:36am | IP Logged | |||||
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Hey all, I have been spending the past year off and on studying Spanish, and the past two months studying it pretty intensively. I had never been able to roll my r's, so whenever I came across a word that required a trill this really awful noise sounding something like this--"ldlgldlk"--would come out. After hearing the different ways r's (and b's, v's, d's, etc) were pronounced in Spanish, I halted everything to try to figure out how to roll my r's. It took me a little over a month of doing drills and trying who knows what from various suggestions online for hours every day until I got frustrated one day and produced a trill accidentally. That was all really exciting and I have been practicing it a lot, but I still can't really fit it into words. I am definitely noticing improvement, though, so I think in time this will get better. However, I have not noticed any improvement on it's friend: the single 'r' (alveolar tap).
I have no trouble putting the 'r' between two vowels or consonants that don't involve the tongue so much (such as 'm' or 'b'), but when there is an 'r' and an 'l', 't', or 'd' together or at the end of a word (such as all infinitive forms of verbs), most of the time it sounds really bad. For example, trying to say the word 'padre' sounds more like 'pah duhday'. When I try to shorten the gap between the 'd' and 'r', my tongue slides lower almost between my teeth and comes out with a 'th' sound. I have been following the Pimsleur course and this has really been tripping me up, especially as sentences are getting more complex. I don't usually have trouble recalling words or constructing the sentences, but trying to pronounce the sentence both correctly and within the pause often causes me to slur some syllables around the bit with the 'r'. The Pimsleur speaker almost sounds like they are rolling the two letters together, the tongue flapping for the r then producing a 'd' sound when it contacts the ridge agains. So my question is, what exactly is the alveolar tap? When I pronounce it it sounds like a softer 'd', but I can't connect it to another consonant very quickly. Do you think I am producing the sound incorrectly or is this something I need to build up a muscle (or just practice) to fit it more comfortably into words? Thanks! James (Sorry for the longwinded introduction) 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
 Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6523 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 2 of 7 03 November 2008 at 6:38am | IP Logged | |||||
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There is some variation in the way Spanish speakers actually pronounce their r's, but as far as I can see the following should be a viable method to obtain the desired sounds :
An isolated one-flap r is pronounced almost like a hard d or an unaspirated t (with a pressue-induced tongue flap against the alveolar ridge), but either you don't quite make the contact between the tip of the tongue and the ridge, or if you do so you move the contact point a bit further towards the back. To produce the multiflap 'rr' the tongue is moved even further towards the back, and it is flattened somewhat. I think your problem with the d+r in "madre" stems from the idea that the d should be the d or t-sound that is so close to a one-flap r. It is not: it is in fact the soft kind of d here so you just flatten the tongue and move it towards the (near-)contact point of the r, and then you make one single flap that represents the r. r + d is a little more difficult because the flap comes before the gradual closure of the d, so here the result should really be a passage with two 'spikes' (one for the r and a weaker one for the d). In practice I think the sound will just be prolonged and have one single 'spike' somewhere in the middle. But there may be regional differences here and I would have to listen concentrated to a lot of Spaniards and Latinos to know exactly how the situation is. Our resident specialists in Spanish may know the answer. Edited by Iversen on 03 November 2008 at 7:53am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Crush Tetraglot Senior Member ChinaRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5685 days ago 1622 posts - 2299 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, Mandarin, Esperanto Studies: Basque | Message 3 of 7 03 November 2008 at 12:45pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Thanks for the response! The d+r sound is becoming much easier, it feels almost like a swooping motion as I hit the 'd' right around my gumline and pull my tongue back to tap the 'r'. A lot of times the 'd' sound isn't as clear as I would like, but I think consciously forcing myself to do it will help it to become more natural.
The r+d is very troublesome, as well as the r+l combo. When saying "verlo", I usually leave the tap out altogether because it just really twists my mouth to try and produce it. I'm not quite sure what you mean by a single spike, though. Like a stressed 'd' or something in the middle? I'm hoping to see some of my Spanish-speaking friends soon, hopefully they can let me know how the sounds I am producing compare to those of a native speaker. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6523 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 4 of 7 04 November 2008 at 2:46am | IP Logged | |||||
r+d: No, not quite. I haven't had the chance to look a true spaniard in the mouth, but this is what I do myself: move the tongue toward the alveolar ridge as if you wanted to pronounce a 'r', but when you get there pronounce a semisoft d instead, i.e. keep the near-contact for a moment with just the faintest trace of the flap, then retract as you would do it from a d-sound. With r+l the same thing, but with a much flatter tongue. Remember, this is just what I do to imitate the sound that I associate with Spanish. But I have also heard some Spanish speakers who use a harder d-sound (actually touching the alveolar ridge instead of just sliding close to it), and I'm not sure of the distribution. If you find it easier to use a hard d in the combination then by all means do so, it doesn't affect the meaning. In short: The thing that distinguishes 'rd' from a 'd' is the more leisurely way you approaches the sound and keep the close contact for a moment, not how you leave it. And I still hope that native Spaniards or advanced learners will correct me if they use another method to produce these sounds. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Othar Diglot Senior Member Germany Joined 6029 days ago 185 posts - 205 votes Speaks: German*, English Studies: Norwegian, Turkish | Message 5 of 7 04 November 2008 at 3:21am | IP Logged | |||||
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On this page there is a visual description of the Spanish sounds. Just hit the Spanish flag. Edited by tja on 04 November 2008 at 3:22am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Crush Tetraglot Senior Member ChinaRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5685 days ago 1622 posts - 2299 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, Mandarin, Esperanto Studies: Basque | Message 6 of 7 04 November 2008 at 9:08pm | IP Logged | |||||
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I've been there a few times before, but my trouble is mostly with putting it together with other specific consonants. It's a really cool site though :)
1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Crush Tetraglot Senior Member ChinaRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5685 days ago 1622 posts - 2299 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, Mandarin, Esperanto Studies: Basque | Message 7 of 7 06 November 2008 at 2:28am | IP Logged | |||||
"mado mado mado" "madre madre madre" "cuato cuato cuato" "cuatro cuatro cuatro" It seems to be helping a little bit :) 1 person has voted this message useful |
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