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Iversen’s Multiconfused Log (see p.1!)

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Fasulye
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 Message 1545 of 3959
06 December 2009 at 4:50pm | IP Logged 
Vortrag im Astronomieclub

DEU: Am Freitag hatten wir in unserem Astronomieclub einen sehr interessanten Vortrag über Physik bezogen auf Raumfahrt verglichen mit den Bewegungen eines Sportlers. Dabei ging es um die Translation (= Längsbewegung) und die Rotation zum Beispiel der ISS und des menschlichen Körpers beim Turmspringen. Einige physikalische Gesetze von Newton kommen dabei zur Anwendung. Zum Glück habe ich hier ein nützliches Nachschlagewerk zur Physik liegen (Großes Handbuch Mathematik, Physik, Chemie), sodass ich die Möglichkeit habe, den Vortrag qualifiziert nachzuarbeiten. Eigentlich geht es um Gesetze der Mechanik, aber mein Lehrbuch nimmt immer Bezug zur Astrophysik.

Fasulye

Edited by Fasulye on 06 December 2009 at 8:59pm

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tommus
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 Message 1546 of 3959
06 December 2009 at 7:21pm | IP Logged 
Klimaatconferentie Nieuws

Vandaag kan ik niet de Kopenhagen Post lezen. Misschien is de website overweldigd. Waarschijnlijk de hele wereld probeert het te lezen. Dus ik zal commentaar geven op het klimaat conferentie nieuws uit andere bronnen.

De conferentie trein (Climate Express) is aangekomen in Kopenhagen, naar verluidt de uitvoering VN-personeel, evenals vele milieuactivisten en journalisten. De trein is er mooi met groene versieringen. De trein kwam uit Engeland en stopte in Brussel. Meer treinen zijn afkomstig uit Europa. De meeste van de 15.000 deelnemers verwacht aan te komen door vliegtuigen van over de hele wereld. Ik vraag me af hoeveel duizenden tonnen CO2 zal worden geproduceerd door al deze reizen?

Canada heeft de aandacht getrokken van milieuactivisten voor haar klimaatbeleid en activiteiten. Canada's doel is om de uitstoot in 1990 te verlagen van zes procent in 2012. Er is veel kritiek op de Canadese oliezanden projecten die heel slecht zijn voor het milieu. Standpunt van Canada in Kopenhagen wordt naar verwachting in lijn met het Amerikaanse standpunt.

De burgemeester van Kopenhagen heeft aangemoedigd de hotels prostitutie te ontmoedigen. De prostituees hebben gereageerd door het aanbieden van hun diensten gratis aan de deelnemers van de klimaat conferentie. Ik vraag me af of dat zal bijdragen tot de opwarming van de aarde of de CO2-productie?

Het meest omstreden probleem lijkt te zijn de geldigheid van het wetenschappelijk onderzoek en rapporten over klimaatverandering. Het zal moeilijk zijn overeenstemming over een oplossing te bereiken als de deelnemers niet eens kunnen worden als er een probleem is. Ongeacht de bron van de opwarming van de aarde, lijkt er weinig twijfel dat de aarde wordt warmer, ijs en sneeuw smelt en de zeespiegel stijgt. Landen waar Nederlands wordt gesproken lijken vooral worden bedreigd door de zeespiegel en klimaatverandering, waaronder natuurlijk, Nederland, België, Suriname en de Nederlands-sprekende eilanden in het Caribisch gebied. Zoals je zou verwachten, is er geen tekort van de Nederlandse taal-klimaatconferentie nieuws op het internet.
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Iversen
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 Message 1547 of 3959
06 December 2009 at 8:26pm | IP Logged 
Comments to SII:

I saw your last post in a short pause before taking a train back home, and when I first saw it my immediate reaction was to stop writing in Russian, and maybe even to stop studying I since I apparently was just as bad at it as last year. Now I have had time to study the corrections one by one, and the situation seems somewhat less clearcut (read 'disastrous'). There are a couple of wrong choices of case, but anyone who studies Russian must have had problems with the cases - though normally you make them in a secluded classroom instead of publishing your errors on the internet. Or you use Ling8 if you want to get corrections without too much publicity. Of course I accept blankly your indications of wrong case and things like that - no discussion with a native speaker about such corrections.

However in a surprising number of the remaining corrections you write that the phrase in principle is correct, but Russians would just express things in an other way and maybe with other words. So here it is more my unidiomatic use of Russian that is in question. The problem is that in some of these cases I did in fact try to express a meaning and you refer to it, but you expected me to want to write something else. For instance the Maya didn't disappear - they gave up their towns and temples, but still here in 2009 form the majority of the population, and their language and culture still exist, though crossbred with Spanish culture and religion. And contrary to the Inca culture the Maya culture disintegrated before the arrival of the Spanish, in all likelyhood for inner reasons (partly political, partly environmental). In fact the comparison with the downfall of the USSR or Austria-Hungary is not quite irrelevant. So "гибель" may still be the correct word, but the Mayas didn't disappear.

In "Авторы говорят уже..." I didn't really think about the consequences of using "уже", but the reality is that typhons aren't really seen as a factor in the demise of the Maya any more, - deforestation and political unrest is mentioned much more often now. So maybe "уже" isn't totally wrong after all? Btw. the word "хищнический" for catastrophic depletion of natural resources is in all its brutality exactly what I was looking for.

The sentence "Их сельское хозяйство.." is full of wrong cases, and "может" should of course be in the past tense. No objections. And your explanation of the difference between "вырублен" and "расчищен" is very clear. The woods were probably cleared both for farming and for use as fuel and building materials, but in this context the most relevant factor is probably the use for fuel since I mention the production of lime for the temples.

".., мы можем даже узнать что-то." Well, I was thinking something like "we can learn something from this". But even in my version I didn't cover "from this", which of course leaves the meaning of the sentence as a mess. Whether "это является уроком, который мы должны извлечь из... " is a suitable substitution for this is questionable, - doesn't it say that we ought to learn from it, rather than that there might be something to to learn from it? Besides I had hoped to find a short and memorable expression in Russian for this. But as I wrote above Russian idiomatics isn't very clear to me.

Right now my main instrument for learning Russian idiomatics (and behind this the Russian way of thinking) is to read Russian texts with Google translations - I sometimes find parallel nonliterary texts on the internet, but they are rarely precise transations - though those at GLOSS are better than most. Besides GLOSS has audio with transcripts, which is the thing I need most. But nobody is perfect, and I haven't been sitting hours in front of my PC listening to Russian as I should have done. I tried Bulgakov's Master and Margharita with audio, transcript and translation. But I cringed at the theatrical way the text was read (especially in Chapter 2), and when one of the main characters got his head chopped of at the end of the third chapter I took is as a signal for me to leave Russian literature.


Edited by Iversen on 06 December 2009 at 11:56pm

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Iversen
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 Message 1548 of 3959
06 December 2009 at 8:56pm | IP Logged 
tommus wrote:
De burgemeester van Kopenhagen heeft aangemoedigd de hotels prostitutie te ontmoedigen. De prostituees hebben gereageerd door het aanbieden van hun diensten gratis aan de deelnemers van de klimaat conferentie. Ik vraag me af of dat zal bijdragen tot de opwarming van de aarde of de CO2-productie?


DU: Naar mijn mening is het niet alleen een gevoel voor humor, maar het toont ook aan dat deze dames hun deel zullen doen om de conferentie tot een succes te maken. Met zo veel mannelijke afgevaardigden in de stad, wordt ervan uitgegaan dat zij kunnen hebben veel geld verdiend. Nu hebben we zeeker nodig dat andere handelaars hetzelfde gevoel van gemeenschap zal laten zien.

The (topmost) mayor of Copenhagen has made an appeal to the hotels not to allow prostitutions. The prostitutes have answered with an offer to make their services free for delegates during the conference. My answer: at least this shows some humoristical sense, - the question is whether any other group of businesspeople will show the same degree of hospitality and community spirit.

GER: Ich habe Samstag nochmals "Genial daneben" gesehen - ich kann jetzt nur diese Übung in Deutsch während meiner Besuchen bei meiner Mutter, weil mein Kabelfirma mir diesen Sender geklaut hat. Diesmal mußten die Teilnehmer z.B. den "Schimmelbogen" erraten, und dies gelang tatsächlich (eine leere Seite in einem Buch). Aber zuvor haben sie fast alle mögliche Bestandteile oder Erscheinungsformen eines Buch vorgeschlagen, und fast jedesmals hat der Herr Balder das dazu passende Wort erwähnt - dies ist Sprachunterricht auf hihen Niveau! Meine Familie hat darüber hinaus das Goethe-Spiel gespiehlt: derjenige der zuerst den Name "Johann Wolfgang Goethe" hört hat gewonnen - Samstag wurde er in eine Sendung von Halberstadt erwähnt. Und es is fast ein Naturgesetz, daß Goethe irgendwann gennant wird, wenn man genug deutsche Kulturhistorische Sendungen sehe.   

To Fasulye: ich habe einige Fernsehsendungen gesehen wo die Bewegungsablaufe von RUmwandler und Mondbesucher diskutiert worden sind, - zum Beispiel im Bezug auf die lächerlichen Behauptungen, dass die Mondwanderer im wirklichkeit nur 'rumhüpften auf dem Boden in einem Filmstudio - daß hätte aber anders ausgesehen, auch im Slowmotion. Freitag Abend sah ich eine Sendung über die Mars Fahrzeuge, wo es sehr klar gemacht wurde, wie genau man die Bewegungen vorausprogrammieren mußte, auch unter Einbeziehung der verschidenen Schwerkräfte hier und auf Mars.

To Anya: So far I have stored the text you refer to on my computer, and then I'll read it as soon as possible.






Edited by Iversen on 07 December 2009 at 12:04am

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Anya
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 Message 1549 of 3959
06 December 2009 at 9:02pm | IP Logged 
http://www.lib.ru/POEZIQ/KURINSKIJ/autodidaktika.txt

Perhaps it may be interesting for you. In "Autodidaktika" there are discritions of language learning approaches, but the problem is that the style of these book is too close to fiction style and you would not like it
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SII
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 Message 1550 of 3959
06 December 2009 at 10:59pm | IP Logged 
Iversen wrote:
Comments to SII:
I saw your last post in a short pause before taking a train back home, and when I first saw it my immediate reaction was to stop writing in Russian, and maybe even to stop studying I since I apparently was just as bad at it as last year. Now I have had time to study the corrections one by one, and the situation seems somewhat less clearcut (read 'disastrous').


I think, I do not less mistakes in my English in comparsion for you Russian. But, in first, Russian is much more difficult language than English (at least grammatically), and in second, you know many languages, and I know only Russian and with difficulty English. In addition, although in your Russian there are many mistakes, but very often your sentences are fully understandable :)

I correct you because I think that it is better to indicate your mistakes than you will memorize somethings incorrectly.

Quote:
There are a couple of wrong choices of case, but anyone who studies Russian must have had problems with the cases - though normally you make them in a secluded classroom instead of publishing your errors on the internet.


I have some ideas about Latin, Ancient Greek and Japanese. As you know, these languages are very different each other, but all of them have the cases. As Russian I don't have the serious problem with the cases in these languages: for me it is absolutely natural to use different cases for different goals. Of course, the Latin accusativus isn't fully equivalent of Russian винительный падеж etc, but it isn't the very big problem for me. But I think that for many of West-Europeans (and Americans) the cases are much more problem in comparsion with Russians: in their languages the cases either absent or have less complexity, and, that is very important, these languages use the fixed (or almost fixed) word order.

Quote:
However in a surprising number of the remaining corrections you write that the phrase in principle is correct, but Russians would just express things in an other way and maybe with other words. So here it is more my unidiomatic use of Russian that is in question. The problem is that in some of these cases I did in fact try to express a meaning and you refer to it, but you expected me to want to write something else. For instance the Maya didn't disappear - they gave up their towns and temples, but still here in 2009 form the majority of the population, and their language and culture still exist, though crossbred with Spanish culture and religion. And contrary to the Inca culture the Maya culture disintegrated before the arrival of the Spanish, in all likelyhood for inner reasons (partly political, partly environmental). In fact the comparison with the downfall of the USSR or Austria-Hungary is not quite irrelevant. So "гибель" may still be the correct word, but the Mayas didn't disappear.


I agree that in some cases you and I are see the different meaning in one event etc. In addition, my English is bad and I have some problems with the exact expression of my ideas. About Maya in comparsion with USSR or Austria-Hungary I want to say that all the countries have crushed in first place by reason of the internal problems (the poor governance, economic troubles etc), and the new countries which have arised on place of crushed countries have the very strong differences with theirs predecessors. For example, Mexico absolutely doesn't resemble Maya; modern Austria, Hungary, Czech Republic etc are the relatively small, weak and insignificant countries although Austria-Hungary was one of the most powerful countries in the world; even modern Russia is very weak in comparsion with USSR (in fact, USA can't fully ignore Russia only because of the exUSSR's nuclear weapon). I use the word "гибель" or "крах" about these countries because their state have changed extremely strong.

Quote:
In "Авторы говорят уже..." I didn't really think about the consequences of using "уже", but the reality is that typhons aren't really seen as a factor in the demise of the Maya any more, - deforestation and political unrest is mentioned much more often now. So maybe "уже" isn't totally wrong after all?


No, "уже" is mistake in any case. Right is: "Авторы по-прежнему говорят о возможности стихийных бедствий, но два наиболее вероятных объяснения..."

The sentence "Их сельское хозяйство.." is full of wrong cases, and "может" should of course be in the past tense. No objections. And your explanation of the difference between "вырублен" and "расчищен" is very clear. The woods were probably cleared both for farming and for use as fuel and building materials, but in this context the most relevant factor is probably the use for fuel since I mention the production of lime for the temples.

Quote:
".., мы можем даже узнать что-то." Well, I was thinking something like "we can learn something from this". But even in my version I didn't cover "from this", which of course leaves the meaning of the sentence as a mess. Whether "это является уроком, который мы должны извлечь из... " is a suitable substitution for this is questionable, - doesn't it say that we ought to learn from it, rather than that there might be something to to learn from it?


Hmmm... "это является уроком, который мы должны извлечь из... " means the "second level of obligatoriness) :) The most strong level is "мы обязаны", the second level is "мы должны". Probably, it is better to say "Это является уроком, который нам следовало бы извлечь из..." -- this form is the advice, not the demand.

Quote:
Right now my main instrument for learning Russian idiomatics (and behind this the Russian way of thinking) is to read Russian texts with Google translations - I sometimes find parallel nonliterary textson the internet, but they are rarely precise transations - though those at GLOSS are better than most. Besides GLOSS has audio with transcripts, which is the thing I need most. But nobody is perfect, and I haven't been sitting horus in front of my PC listening to Russian as I should have done. I tried Bulgakov's Master and Margharita with audio, transcript and translation. But I cringed at the theatrical way the text was read (especially in Chapter 2), and when one of the main characters got his head chopped of at the end of the third chapter I took is as a signal for me to leave Russian literature.


The problem is that very many of Internet texts in Russians have written by poor language, with the orthographic and syntax mistakes; about the literature style I'm afraid even say :((( Of course, there are the good texts. IMHO, it is better to use the Russian classic literature. And IMHO, it is better to read, not to listen. Although this depends on peculiarity of man; for example, for me the reading is much better, I notice this many years ago, when I was 10-11 y.o.: I poorly understood the explanations in school but very easy sorted out by oneself reading textbooks and other books. It seems, your level of Russian is enough for reading non-adapted texts without any Google translations :) Of course, you must have the enough time for it -- this may be the very strong problem (for example, I haven't time for the regular study of languages, and my knowledge of English in first place relates to reading of English technical manuals).

About Master and Margharita. It is very specific fiction (personally I don't like this book although some other Bulgakov's fictions I read with pleasure); in addition, it is too long for the language study goal (although "War and Peace" by Tolstoy is in 3 times longer :) ).
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Iversen
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 Message 1551 of 3959
06 December 2009 at 11:55pm | IP Logged 
Thanks SII, I have just given your post a vote for usefulness
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Fasulye
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 Message 1552 of 3959
07 December 2009 at 1:15am | IP Logged 
And .... Iversens native language Danish has no cases. People who have a case system in their native language have got an advantage to learn other languages with cases because they can use the cases of their native language for triangulation. I always refer to German cases - even if the German language uses a different case than my target language. It's like with musicians who build up tone-intervals. You can refer to something. I spoke with Amir about the difficulty of learning German and he said that learning the German cases is not his problem because he is used to the Russian (his native language) case system.

Fasulye

Edited by Fasulye on 07 December 2009 at 1:16am



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