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Iversen’s Multiconfused Log (see p.1!)

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Iversen
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 Message 1553 of 3959
07 December 2009 at 2:57am | IP Logged 
I have known languages like German and Latin so long that cases as such aren't a problem. However Russian cases tend to be used in unexpected ways. For instance the instrumental is used for the 'subject predicate' (the thing that 'is' something in a sentence) - except when the copula verb is absent (plus a few other cases) where the nominative is used. And it is always a challenge to guess which case goes with which preposition. Those things can be prepared by grammar studies, but must ultimately be learnt as idiomatic constructions. And guessing which prepositions should be used where can also be a challenge because their distribution is quite unpredictable. This last problem is known in English and Danish, but without the added complication stemming from the use of cases.

Edited by Iversen on 08 December 2009 at 12:01am

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Iversen
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 Message 1554 of 3959
08 December 2009 at 1:08am | IP Logged 
Platt:

JW wrote:
Ich möchte eine Abschrift von diesem MP3 auf Plattdeutsch machen. Ich kann es doch verstehen aber ich habe gar keine Idee wie man es buchstabiert (es ist ganz kurz):
http://www.kirchentag2005.de/s9y/uploads/audio/plattdeutsch_ vaterunser.mp3
Danke im Voraus


Ik heff dit so bookstabeert:

Uns Vader in den Himmel
Laat hillig waarden* dien Namen
Laat komen dien Riek
Wat du wolt, schall waarden op den Himmel und op de Eer
Giff uns Brot dessen Dag, un reken uns nich to wat wi Unrecht daan hebt
So als wi nich toreken willt was uns andaan is
Laat ons nich afkomen van dien Recht
Un maak uns frei** vun all was uns drift***
Du wollt dat, du kanst dat, du deist dat ok
Amen

* "warrn" is Standard
** "dreept" is Standard
*** "free" is Standard

In de daat heff Platt nich een Standard, aver Wikipedia op Platt heff dit beschloten: "De Brukers vun de Wikipedia op Plattdüütsch hebbt utmaakt, dat se de Sass-Schrievwies na dat Wöörbook vun Johannes Sass (kiek ok ünner Wikipedia:Wöörböker) bruken deit." Ik heff een lütte Sass köff, - "Plattdeutsches Wörterbuch", mit meer as 9.000 Steekworten un veele Uutdrücken. Aver in so een lütte Book finnt man natürlich nich alle worten, un dan moet een raten. Ik heff te Bispeel nich "Ausdrück" funnen, un dan moet ik "(u)ut" un "Drük" (Druck) kombineeren. Google fünnt nich "Utdrük" un "Uutdrük" blots een mol: "...woans de Uutdrük van..." (www.ins-bremen.de/presse/files/INS99.PDF), aver ik heff nich bäteres. "Bereits" word ok nich funnen, aver "reeds" (inspireert vun Nederlands) geeft's met een Reeg hits op Google. Aver wie kann een op Google sööken, wenn Platt gar nich Sööksprook is?. Jo, ik söök mien Söökterm un een paaar tyypsche Wöören op Platt, - t.B. "vun" un "mien". Un toch moet ik Freesche und Hochdüütse Bornen wegsmieten.

So is't gor nich eenfach Platt te leren.

---------

I have made a transcript of a prayer in Low German for JW, and after that I mention that there isn't really an ortographic standard for Low German but the people behind Wikipedia in Platt have decided to stick to the spelling proposed by Johannes Sass, and I try to follow in their footsteps. However some of my Low German books use other spelling systems, so it is sometimes a bit difficult to get used to a consistent spelling pattern in this language.

I do have a small two-way dictionary which follows the Sass system, but with just 9000 headwords all in all it simply can't cover the ground - even though it is surprisingly good for such a small book. When this dictionary or another even smaller in my possession can't give me a translation into Platt I have to guess, using both High German and Dutch (and applying a number of simple conversion rules determined by the language history), and afterwards I can check these guesses with Google. But even this can be a problem because Google doesn't have Platt as a search language. Instead I have to use searches with the relevant search word plus a couple of very common and typical Low German words, such and "vun" and "mien" (High German "von" and "mein"). And even then I have to sift the results to find those that actually are in Low German.

It is certainly not a straightforward matter to study a language like Platt. Which is one more reason for doing it.

Edited by Iversen on 08 December 2009 at 8:00am

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tommus
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 Message 1555 of 3959
08 December 2009 at 3:12am | IP Logged 
Klimaatconferentie Nieuws

Volgens Radio Nederland Wereldomroep is Denemarken het land van ongewoon aantrekkelijke mensen. Ik bezocht Kopenhagen twee keer in 1976. Dat was zeker de situatie op dat moment. Het lijkt een prachtige plek voor een klimaat conferentie met 15.000 bezoekers uit de hele wereld. December is waarschijnlijk niet de beste tijd om Kopenhagen te bezoeken. Noch winter noch zomer. Misschien Iversen kan ons een beetje vertellen over wat het weer tijdens de twee weken van de conferentie zal zijn.

Treinen zijn beter voor het milieu dan vliegtuigen. Een reiziger uit Kyoto, Japan reisde naar Kopenhagen via de Trans Siberië Express. De reis duurde ongeveer twee weken. Maar blijkbaar was het geweldig. Er was veel tijd om Russisch te spreken, en veel tijd over het milieu te praten. Er is een uitstekende gelegenheid voor Iversen; een reis naar Vladivostok en terug, op die trein.
     
Veel van de bezoekers naar Kopenhagen zal geen uitnodiging naar de conferentie krijgen. Ze moeten andere methoden om hun boodschappen te uiten, en om uitspraken over het klimaat beleid te maken. Volgens RNW, "De media zijn voor hen belangrijk om hun boodschap over te kunnen brengen."

Activisten gebruikte effectief de media vanochtend in Ottawa. Twintig leden van Greenpeace klommen het dak van het Parlement om te protesteren tegen de olie-zand-industrie en het milieubeleid van de overheid. Alle twintig werden gearresteerd, maar hun berichten werden uitvoerig gerapporteerd door televisie en andere media.

Edited by tommus on 08 December 2009 at 3:13am

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JW
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 Message 1556 of 3959
08 December 2009 at 4:28am | IP Logged 
Iversen, thanks again for the Low German transcription. Your description above of how you triangulate Low German by interpolating between Dutch and High German is exactly how I do it with Luxembourgish. There is only one Luxembourgish on-line dictionary and it is French-Luxembourgish so I have to enter the French word and then look for something that looks like the German word or the French word with a Germanic spelling, then I can be reasonably sure I have it. As you said, a lot of trouble but fun--like a linguistic Easter Egg hunt.

Have you ever tried this on-line Low German Dictionary:

http://www.deutsch-plattdeutsch.de/wsuchen.php

I actually have used it several times and it seems pretty good. I type in the High German word and look for something that looks like a strangely spelled High German or Dutch word with multiple umlauts and bingo.

By the way that term "lütte Book" is hysterical--so close to English.

Edit: and also lüttje beet...

Edited by JW on 08 December 2009 at 4:33am

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Iversen
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 Message 1557 of 3959
08 December 2009 at 8:17am | IP Logged 
We hadden de natste november in levende geheugen - slechts drie dagen waar het NIET regende. En de weersvoorspelling voor de volgende dagen is niet beter: misschien droog vandaag, maar daana wordt het kouder en natter. Die deelnemers aan de klimaatconferentie merken waarschijnlijk niet veel voor het weer, en hopelijk houden onruststokers niet van regen.

Ik mag in het algemeen reizen met de trein (9 x Interrail!), Maar de reis van de Trans-Siberische spoorweg is te lang - 6 dagen.

-------

It has rained every day minus three days in November, and it will probably start to rain and get colder again tomorrow. Those who participate in the climate conference will probably not feel much, and hopefully the troublemakers in the streets don't like rain.

I generally like train travel (though my recent tour from Beograd to Thessaloniki in a sleepers reeking of pee and with toilets without water and toilet paper was an exception). However 6 days and nights in the Transsibirian railway is not my cup of tea.

Edited by Iversen on 08 December 2009 at 8:20am

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Iversen
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 Message 1558 of 3959
10 December 2009 at 12:31am | IP Logged 
Writing in this subforum is like trying to keep up with a formel 1 racecar, - I last wrote something here 44 hours ago, and my humble thread has already been relegated to the second page because of all the eager members who want to participate in the different TAC's. But hurray for that, it shows what an active bunch of language obsessed nerds we are.

Earlier today I listened to Laoshu505000's recent video where he mentions a number of other polyglots who have put clips on Youtube. It almost begins looks like a community of superpolyglots who publish there, and I follow this development with interest. But so far I don't feel tempted to join the ranks.

Platt: Ik heff ok de http://www.deutsch-plattdeutsch.dewww.deutsch-plattdeutsch.de[/URL] studeert. Sien wöörbook seggt dit över "bereits":

Düütsch     ---> Plattdüütsch
Arbeitsbereitschaft --->   Arbeitsbereedschop/~praatheit
Arbeitsbereitschaft ---> wat se överhaupt arbeiten wüllt
fast ---> fast, bereits, beinahe *
Flugbereitschaft ---> verbal ausdrücken
Rufbereitschaft ---> Roopbereedschop/~praatheit
Streikbereitschaft ---> Streikredigkeit /~praatheit

Aver nich "bereits", buten als een woord in Platt (wat mi suspekt ankomt). Dit book hefft as 't lett 13.000 Wöör, so 't is afsünnerlich dat hoochdüütsch "bereits" fehlt.

In een Gespreek op Radio Bremen - "Moin, moin un willkamen bi de Plattsnackers" - weer seggt dat so wat wie 1 vun 5 junge Lüü im Norden Platt schnackt. Ik glöff aver dat dit een Beten optimistisch is.


----

I have checked the homepage mentioned by JW (and read some of the poems and articles there). The dictionary is interesting because it is based on a full text indexation. However I tested it with the very common High German word "bereits" (already), and it didn't have on the High German side of the equation. However the following three words were presented as Low German: "fast, bereits, beinahe", which is a dubious claim. "Fast" exists in Platt, but with other meanings, and the other two don't look as genuine Low German words - though in the present state of decay they may have entered the speech as foreign High German loanwords in the language. In an interview at Radio Bremen (unfortunately mostly in High German) there is an estimate that 1 out of 5 young people in Nothern Germany can speak Platt. Well I don't live there so I can't know for sure, but to me it sounds somewhat optimistic.

---------

GR: Έχω μελετήσει, επίσης, ορισμένα άρθρα στο Science Illustrated (το οποίο έχω ήδη αναφερθεί εδώ). Και εδώ αντιμετώπηστα σε μερικές ελληνικές λέξεις που έχουν άλλες έννοιες σε άλλες γλώσσες. Σ' ένα άρθρο για τα νέα ευρήματα της δεινόσαυρους στην Αυστραλία λέει: "Οι Αυστραλοί παλαιοντολόγοι ανακάλυψαν τρείς νέους μεγαλόσομους δεινοσάυρους, δύο χορτοφάαγους και ένα σαρκοφά´γο, (...)".Η κανονική λέξη για το "meat" στη σύγχρονη ελληνική γλώσσα είναι "κρέας", αλλά μεταφορικά χρησιμοποιείται "σαρκα": "ένας ανθρώπος από σάρκα και οστά". Στο μέλλον, δεν θα μπορώ να δείτε μια σαρκοφάγο χωρίς να φανταστώ ότι ροκανίζει τo σώμα του νεκρού ατόμου από μόνη της ως αρπακτικό δεινοσαύρο. Σε ένα άλλο άρθρο μου φάνηκε περίεργο να δούμε αστροναύτες περιγράμμενους ως "Αποστόλων" - αλλά "απόστολος" πραγματικά σημαίνει απλά 'αγγελιοφόρος'.

I have also been rereading some articles in my trusty Greek 'Science Illustrated'. In the course of this activity I have seen a few words that are used with slightly different meanings in other languages. For instance there was an article about the recent find of four dinosaurs from the Cretaceous in Australia, three of which are 'vegetable eaters' (Khortaphagoi], while the last one is a 'flesh eater' (Sarkophagos). Sarcophagos? I will never be able to see a sarcophagus again without imagining it to be a fierce carrion eater that devours the flesh of dead human beings.

It is also somewhat unexpected to see astronauts in another article being called 'apostles', - but the original meaning of 'apostle' is really just 'messenger', and that apparently is how the Greeks see them ... though the chances of finding someone to deliver a message to on the Moon are and always have been pretty slim.

Edited by Iversen on 21 December 2009 at 1:53pm

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JW
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 Message 1559 of 3959
10 December 2009 at 6:04am | IP Logged 
JW wrote:
Wo kann man das Plattdeutsche Computerprogramm kriegen das gezeigt war?


Dat weet ik nich, aver Radio Bremen wöör een Vörschlag

(PS sorry about editing your post, - I intended to write an answer)


Edited by Iversen on 10 December 2009 at 2:48pm

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Iversen
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 Message 1560 of 3959
11 December 2009 at 1:53am | IP Logged 
I surf quite a lot to find something to read, and this evening I was struck for the third time by a virus, - or in this case rather a trojan called Fake_alert. I think I have cleaned up most of the mess, but there are some things left - for instance my virus program warned me against a graphics file in gif format, stored in the temporary internet area. I knew jpg's could be infected, but not gif's. But right now it seems that I can work again. But it will just be a short message, because I have to get some sleep soon.

CAT: En el meu autobus-per-a-retorner-del-treball vaig llegir avui alguns articles en l'edició de Sàpiens, que vaig comprar en el mes de maig d'aquest any a Catalunya. Hi havia alguns breus articles tractant de morts sospitosos. Un d'ells va ser el Papa Joan Paul l - que va morir solament 33 dies després de ser investit com a Papa. Tambe l'emperador Roman Augustus i l'emperador Alemany-Sant-Roman Otó III son esmentats. A l'altra costat es planteja dubtes sobre la mort de Tut-Ankh-Amon, que potser s'ha enderrocat amb un carro (totham ha cregut que el vesir i futur faraó Aye hagués planejat la seva mort, i la mort de la seva Germana-mulher).

I ara va arribar un parell de noves advertències del meu programa antivirus, pel que deixo de aquí per ara...


EDIT: it took some time and some downloading of new software, but now I think that I have fixed my poor little PC. First it got something called Fake_alert (which is a very genuine and dangerous thing). I got more or less rid of Fake-Alert, men in the meantime that darned thing had summoned something called ODB.EXE (and 5_ODB.EXE), who opened pages with messages about debugging and invitations to join sleazy porn pages. I then downloaded some software from Malwarebyte that not only removed the last traces of the ODB's, but also found an LSASS and a SVC and something called DOWNADUP (maybe better known as 'conficker'). Right now it seems that things have returned to normal, and I can even write é and è and à, - for some reason I couldn't do that while my machine was possessed by evil forces. But it is 3.30 now, - this will be one short night!

btw. last time I had a virus attack I discovered it through a similarly weird effect: I could do just about everything except write the tag <script> in a html-file! If I tried then the rest of the file was blanked. Then I tried to access the homepages of several Antivirus producers, but couldn't - until I discovered that I could read Google translations of those pages! The weird effects on writing are typically seen with infections by the socalled 'root kits', which effectively take over the operating system of the computer and control every single key you touch and everything you try to access.

It takes some time to clean a machine that has been infected with a kit or virus or trojan or adware scam, and after that it takes some time to really trust it again.


Edited by Iversen on 11 December 2009 at 3:51am



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