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Iversen’s Multiconfused Log (see p.1!)

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Fasulye
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 Message 1881 of 3959
13 June 2010 at 9:55pm | IP Logged 
DE: Ich schaue eigentlich fast gar keinen Fußball, aber ich bin sehr sachkundig auf diesem Gebiet. Fußball Weltmeistersschaften und Europameisterschaften sind für mich interessant, weil mich auch die Länder und Kulturen interessieren und man mit Top-Mannschaften zu tun hat. Ich setze mich gerne in ein öffentliches Café und schaue mir dann ein Spiel an - und komme darüber mit anderen Leuten ins Gespräch. Wenn morgen das Wetter gut ist, werde ich mir das Dänemarkspiel irgendwo draußen auf irgendeinem Großfernseher in der Stadt anschauen. Und dann mal sehen, mit wem ich da fachsimpeln kann...

Dass dich soetwas überhaupt nicht interessiert, weiß ich natürlich!

Fasulye



Edited by Fasulye on 13 June 2010 at 10:13pm

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Iversen
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 Message 1882 of 3959
13 June 2010 at 10:11pm | IP Logged 
SP: Nada después de jueves. ¡Qué lastima! Qué vergüencia .. peró he escribido en otros hilos, y pasé el major parte del fin de semana fuera de mi casa. En este momento estoy escuchando las noticias de TVE Internacional. He visto también en Science un programa de televisión sobre glaciares y desastres naturales donde había una mención de un accidente en las Cordilleras de América del Sur, donde deapareció toda una ciudad con 80.000 habitantes a pocos minutos por un lahar. Graciadamente ningún no hablaban en Inglés en el mismo tiempo que los sudamericanos hablaban en español.

SCO: The friday ah also fand the time tae visit the local leebrar [library]. I wantit tae find a beuk aboot the Bahasa o Maleisia, but noo - nocht! Ah hae the Indonesian Lanely Planet Phrase Beuk, that is muckle better not the ane frae the same company acause o the fact that the pronunciation is less veesible - in three columns sets the tribblesone Sassenach disturbance hae been stelled tae the richt whaur ah can eathly ignore it. Insteid of the Maleisian langage guide ah hae just printed the grammer article frae Wikipedia (in the Ingles edition) - it shall gie mair then eneuch occupation tae ma aff-gaun in July. An than ah also printed the Scots ane.

RU: Кроме того, я работал над текстом на древнем Новгороде. Он описал, в частности, письма, которые писали на коре беревозом - и не только священнослужители могли бы написать. Археологи нашли много писем от простых людей. Это, пожалуй, в результате формы правления: она "вещь" (тинг), как страны Северной Европы, поэтому люди приняли участие в городском управление.

-----

Shame on me. Or with an old phrase "Woe is me", which has become "woe on me" ... and the reason is of course that I haven't written anything in this thread since Thursday.

When I wrote the Spanish passage I had just watched the Spanish news in TVE, at least until the sports section started. Earlier today I watched a program about gletchers and the risk they pose for populations in some areas, - and in the section from the Cordilleras they told about a catastrophe where a whole town (Yungay) was buried under    a landslide from a nearby gletscher. The program was in English, but at least the interviews were in Spanish. There was also a passage from Bhutan, where I don't have the advantage of understanding to local language.

Friday I visited our local library to find a better book about Bahasa than the one from Lonely Planet, but to no avail. The strange thing is that I have a language guide from the same company about the Indonesian version of Bahasa, and it is much better. The offending text is still in another colour, but it is a less offensive reddish tone and in three column layouts it is placed to the far right where I can ignore it, - in the Malaysan it is placed smack in the middle in a glaring green colour that looks like pus. I could just as well throw the book away and find something better in Malaysia when I arrive there. However I have made a print from the grammar section on Malaysian from Wikipedia, and now I was at it then I also made a copy of the grammar article about Scots.

And finally I have worked with a text about Old Novgorod, where I noticed several very interesting things. First: the general population could write - not only the clergy. Second: They wrote on slabs of birch bark, and the archeologues have found hundreds of letters to and from quite ordinary citizens concerning quite mundane matters. And third: the town had a 'thing', maybe inspired by the Nordic countries. After all vikings (mostly) from Sweden had one of their trade routes here. And the first dynasty of rulers in the biggest rival city Kiev were actually Nordic.

Edited by Iversen on 17 June 2010 at 12:35am

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Fasulye
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 Message 1883 of 3959
13 June 2010 at 10:19pm | IP Logged 
SP: A causa de mis problemas de condición en los ultimas 3 semanas no tuve ninguna occasión para leer revistas de la sciencia. !Que lastima! Tengo aqui fotocopias de articolos en el olandés para la astronomia que ya las queria leer antes, pero no estuve capaz para hacer nada de intellectual. Tampoco para estudiar idiomas. Asi era la situación.

Fasulye

Edited by Fasulye on 13 June 2010 at 10:34pm

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Iversen
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 Message 1884 of 3959
15 June 2010 at 9:31pm | IP Logged 
Today I followed a link to Benny the Polyglot's blog, and from there I happened to continue to another blog written by a certain Vincent, - I have seen his surname somewhere, but couldn't find it right away for this post. In many ways I like his approach, and I found much of interest in his blog, including a three part discussion with Steve Kaufmann. In this discussion Vincent first mentioned that he might use several weeks on grammar studies when he started out learning a new language. Steve answered that he generally would rely on getting the rules of grammar from his input, though he had in fact checked some morphological tables for Russian - but he would generally forget the rules he found in such sources. In the second section some of the explanation for this difference was given: Steve K is not keen to produce output fast, he is more interested in input at that stage. Vincent was on the other hand interested in being able to produce reasonably correct output fast, and he found that grammar studies would help him in this respect.

Needless to say that I'm with Vincent on this point, and I even noticed that he suggested an 'active' way of dealing with grammar. I do that with my comparative studies of several grammars (big and small) that help me to understand the system behind the tables and systems. "Understanding" basically means two things:

1) weeding out exceptions and rare cases, leaving out the main skeleton. Exceptions should be learnt as annotated lexical entitites or as study objects in their own right

2) Deciding on a suitable graphical layout of the grammar, and for morphology this typically means summarizing the main structures on "green sheets". When I have to refer to a specific form I prefer doing so by referring to the logical/spatial position of the element on a green sheet, rather than by using some combination of Latin words - among other things because it is faster than thinking/saying several grammatical terms.

Like Steve K I don't want to produce output to the outside world too early, but thinking silently should start early, with no obligation to produce correct utterances from the start. Vincent is apparently in another situation. However an extreme fan of early output like Benny is also keen to stress that errors are unavoidable and shouldn't keep anyone from formulating something.

In addition to this I have also had time to study some Irish, and for this purpose I have used the text about the Ogham alphabet in the Irish Gaelic wikipedia ('Vicipéid'), printed out as an 'interspersed' (rather than interlaced) bilingual text using Google's translate mechanism, - I have described the actual technique in my Guide to language learning, second part message 8.

There is however one slight problem, namely that the translation results are even more dubious with Irish than those that come from the use of this technique on for instance Russian. The most logical explanation is the small number of bilingual texts that Google can use as basis for its algorithms. But I have also noticed that words with lenition or eclipsis often are left untranslated. This is for instance the case for "sheanda", whose root form is "seanda" ('archaic'). But also other words are left untranslated in this manner, such as "rúnscribhinn" which according to my dictionary means 'code' (and of course I wonder whether the word came with the vikings).

The words I look up are as usual transferred to word lists - otherwise I would forget them.


Edited by Iversen on 17 June 2010 at 12:55am

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Hobbema
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 Message 1885 of 3959
16 June 2010 at 12:57am | IP Logged 
Iversen wrote:

Like Steve K I don't want to produce output to the outside world too early, but thinking silently should start early, with no obligation to produce correct utterances from the start. Vincent is apparently in another situation. However an extreme fan of early output like Benny is also keen to stress that errors are unavoidable and shouldn't keep anyone from formulating something.


Infelizmente, eu ainda não sou capaz de pensar em minhas línguas, pelo menos não mais do que conceitos simples por causa do meu capacidade. Mas, eu acho que o processo que você descreveu aqui é importante. Eu acho que é importante, porque você tem capaz de fazer erros sem se preocupar.

Eu acho que de quando eu estudava matemática na escola. Eu posso passar o dia todo trabalhando em problemas, cometendo os mesmos erros, mas quando eu descobrir o método correto, agora tenho um "framework" onde eu veijo a solução.

Então, aqui eu sugiro que estudar, formar grupos de orações, enquanto cometendo erros, em uma linguagem dá um contexto, de modo que quando o método correto é descoberto, é facilmente compreensível.

Por exemplo, muitos erros aqui!
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Iversen
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 Message 1886 of 3959
16 June 2010 at 11:22pm | IP Logged 
POR: Eu não diria que eu não me preocupar com os erros, mas é muito mais importante ser capaz de falar e escrever do que fazê-lo sem errores. Eu sei que há erros nos meus textos em diversas línguas, e estou realmente grato que alguns pessoas tinham a bondade de depura-los, mas a pergunta é se eu aprenda mais cavando os meus propios velhos erros do que por ler e estudar ainda mais textos no linguagem coreto. Pensar é tão importante porque se pode faze-lo sem interferência e sobrancelhas levantadas. Inicialmente basta combinar algumas palavras descrevendo as coisas que se olha ao seu redor, mais tarde se pôde combinar os framentos na frases completas com lacunas - e para mim sería chato ter ouvintes nesta fase. A partir do momento em que eu me possa expressar em frases completas - embora com furos e erros - não me incomoda tanto que a gente vêe toda a miséria.

Para facilitar este processo, se pode ouvir ou ler tanto na outro idioma que a sua cabeça fervilha com palavras e expressões na língua estrangeira - e, em seguida, não seria dificil pensar direitamente na lingua. Lembro-me, no entanto, duma discussão onde Cainntear enfatizou que nem todos pensam em palavras - e, obviamente, torna-se mais dificil fazê-lo numa língua estrangeira. Mas, felizmente, não tenho esto problema. Yogis diversos acham que eu teria que esvaziar a minha cabeça de pensamentos. Embora eu prefereria enchê-lo com ainda mais idéias.

Outra coisa: nós temos discutido anteriormente a música. Eu recomecei a escuta sistemática das minhas velhas cassetes de música, escrevendo as temas e tudo, e agora eu venho para o grande Sibelius. Desculpe, não posso escrever sobre ele no finlandês, mas nos últimos três dias eu ouvi as sete sinfonias, o concerto para violino e a maioria de suas outras obras orquestrais. É uma pena que ele divulgou nada os últimos 30 anos da sua vida - a última obra orquestral que ele publicou, Tapiola foi uma obra-prima incomparável.

---

Hobbema commends me for being able to write without caring too much about errors, a remark alluding to my earlier reference to Benny the Irish Polyglot, who also thinks that errors are unavoidable and shouldn't stop you from trying to express yourself. One big difference between Benny and me is that while I don't worry too much about errors (provided that they are weeded out later when you have got the skills and mental surplus to do something about it) I simply hate not being able to present a complete thought in speech or writing. And thinking silently is my most important technique to make languages active.

Hobbema writes that he can't think in his foreign languages. I find this very strange, provided that he can do it in English and that he writes fluently in several languages including Portuguese. I do however remember a discussion where Cainntear emphasized that not all people think predominantly in words, so to do it freely in a foreign language would be even more unlikely - but fortunately I don't have that problem. I also think in music and pictures and other nonverbal systems, but most of the time me head is spinning with verbal thoughts - and in spite of the admonitions of most yogis I like it that way.

And now to something completely different: I have after a slow period restarted my systematic listening sessions with my old cassette tapes, which are organized after composers names (with 'smaller' composers as fill on tapes with the major names). And after a week with Shostakovitch I have now reached Sibelius. In three evenings I have listened to most of his orchestral works, including the suites from the Storm, King Christian and Pélleas et Mélisande, and in parallel to this I have made lists of all the main themes in these works. The strange thing about Sibelius is that he finished his active career with an unsurpassed masterwork, Tapiola ... and then he published nought for the last thirty years of his life. What as waste!

And of course this should have been written in Finnish, but so far I haven't had time to learn this fascinating language.   


Edited by Iversen on 17 June 2010 at 12:58am

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Fasulye
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 Message 1887 of 3959
17 June 2010 at 8:09pm | IP Logged 
Iversen wrote:
Hobbema writes that he can't think in his foreign languages. I find this very strange, provided that he can do it in English and that he writes fluently in several languages including Portuguese. I do however remember a discussion where Cainntear emphasized that not all people think predominantly in words, so to do it freely in a foreign language would be even more unlikely - but fortunately I don't have that problem. I also think in music and pictures and other nonverbal systems, but most of the time me head is spinning with verbal thoughts - and in spite of the admonitions of most yogis I like it that way.


What a pity, Hobbema. But I'm sure that your thinking level of Portuguese and Dutch will come once in a while, you just have to continue studying and be patient!!!

I can think freely in seven languages: DE - NL - FRA - ITA - ESP - EN - SPA and I can manipulate my thoughts in a way that I can switch languages from one second to the other. - That's what Torbyrne and Luca are doing in their You Tube interview! - But I still can't think in Latin, Turkish and Danish. I will probably never activate Latin, but I think it will be easier to reach a thinking level in Danish than in Turkish, but I am still far away from both, so I will probably need some more years to reach that.

Fasulye

Edited by Fasulye on 17 June 2010 at 8:13pm

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Iversen
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 Message 1888 of 3959
17 June 2010 at 11:12pm | IP Logged 
LAT: Sum, ergo cogito (Cartesius inversus).

Around the time where we discussed ways of thinking in another thread I read several articles about 'wordless' and 'pictureless' thought, but to this day I'm not really certain what it is - the nearest thing in my mind would be an unformulated hunch, an intentionality while doing menial tasks or the void that precisely defines the intended content of a missing word. But apart from that my thinking is dominated by specific ways of thinking - mostly words, but also specific pictoral or aural thinking (actually I painted and composed music in earlier times). Nevertheless the articles I have read suggested that the 'neutral' kind of thinking is fairly common, and it is the most common form of thinking for some persons.

Today I have spent some time listening to short webtv clips/podcasts from the internet in a variety of languages, but nothing that really deserves a comment - except that the GLOSS site seems to have been closed permanently down.

SCO: Ah hae been readin the article o Scots grammer that ah fund in the Scots Wikipedia, and it is weel seen that ah have yet a guid pickle o things tae larn.

My bus-back-home-from-work book is a tiny Indonesian phrase book which I must have bought as a souvenir when I visited the area several years ago. I'm aware that Indonesian Bahasa differs somewhat from Malaysian, but I have now definitively dropped the Lonely Planet language guide to Malaysian because of those ugly pus coloured pronunciation directives, so there is no alternative (except ordering books via the internet, which is a little too much, given that I just want to prepare a little for one single travel..

ICE: Svefnlesturinn minn er enn Hómers Ódysseifskvíða á Islenzk. Þetta er prósa utgáfa, og málið hans er furðu auðvelt að lesa. Það er mjög vel valin bók fyrir nóttatíma lestur, því að ég falli yfirleitt sofandi áður en ég ná að lesa aðeins ein síðu: "Seg mér, sönggyðja, frá hinum ráðkæna manni er hraktisk mjög víða, eftir að han hefði lagt í eyði hina helgu Trójuborg...." ZZZzzz

My night reading is still a prose version of the Odyssey in Icelandic. It is surprisingly easy to read (I can do do it almost without looking words up), and it has one very relevant property for a goodnight book: I normally fall asleep after less than one page. So it will last a long time.


Edited by Iversen on 18 June 2010 at 11:30am



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