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Iversen’s Multiconfused Log (see p.1!)

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Iversen
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 Message 2921 of 3959
07 May 2012 at 1:14am | IP Logged 
I have been visiting my family this weekend. On the way down I read the stack of newspapers I found at my return from Sicily, and on the way home I read an Italian astronomy magazine (I'll return to that later). While I was there I found time to do a few word counts. I brought along Langenscheidt's German-Portuguese dictionary and used it in both directions, so my status right now looks like this (with minor differences compared to the numbers given above, because I have corrected a few calculating errors, including some errors in my video about the theme, which I uploaded last week):

Italian:

d'Agostini: used 20 pages of 311.
Words known, halfknown,unknown: 545, 90, 117 (72%, 12%, 16%)
Expressions known, halfknown,unknown: 136, 52, 63 (54%, 21%, 25%)
Absolute estimates: 8475 words (out of 11694), 2115 (out of 3903) expressions

NB: 8475 sounds low, but remember that it is out of 11694... so therefore a larger dictionary is needed to give a realistic absolute picture. But the percentages vary less:

Gyldendal: used 8 pages of 780.
Words known, halfknown,unknown: 268, 60, 97 (63%, 14%, 23%)
Expressions known, halfknown,unknown: 89, 25, 31 (61%, 17%, 21%)
Absolute estimates: 26130 words (of 41438), 5948 (of 14138) expressions

PORTUGUESE:

Oxford colour:: used 4 pages of 180.
Words known, halfknown,unknown: 219, 35, 71 (67%, 11%, 22%)
Expressions known, halfknown,unknown: 11, 6, 6 (48%, 26%, 26%)
Absolute estimates: 9855 words (of 14625), 495 (of 1035) expressions

Langenscheidt:: used 6 pages of 608.
Words known, halfknown,unknown: 197, 45, 54 (67%, 15%, 18%)
Expressions known, halfknown,unknown: 20, 20, 14 (37%, 37%, 26%)
Absolute estimates: 19962 words (of 29995), 3749 (of 5472) expressions

ENGLISH:

Oxford (1989):: used 4 pages of 1360.
Words known, halfknown,unknown: 172, 26, 62 (66%, 10%, 24%)
Expressions known, halfknown,unknown: 52, 10, 13 (69%, 13%, 17%)
Absolute estimates: 38987 words (of 58933), 11787 (of 17000) expressions

Gyldendal:: used 6 pages of 608.
Words known, halfknown,unknown: 186, 20, 34 (78%, 8%, 14%)
Expressions known, halfknown,unknown: 68, 6, 17 (75%, 7%, 19%)
Absolute estimates: 28830 words (of 37000), 10540 (of 14105) expressions

GERMAN:

Gyldendal:: used 4 pages of 539.
Words known, halfknown,unknown: 339, 58, 60 (74%, 13%, 13%)
Expressions known, halfknown,unknown: 37, 1, 8 (80%, 2%, 17%)
Absolute estimates: 45680 words (of 61581), 4986 (of 6199) expressions

Langenscheidt Deutsch-Port.:: used 4 pages of 613.
Words known, halfknown,unknown: 177, 23, 9 (85%, 11%, 4%)
Expressions known, halfknown,unknown: 34, 5, 5 (77%, 11%, 11%)
Absolute estimates: 27125 words (of 32029), 5210 (of 6743) expressions

If you compare the English and German Gyldendals then the German one is thinner than the English one (I used my Mother's dictionaries, which are fairly old - 1989 resp. 1976) - but it contains far more words than the English one. However this is due to the German use of concatenation, where English uses juxtaposition - and as you can see there are more 'expressions' in the English book (although not enough to compensate for the lower number of single words).

All numbers must be taken with some reservations because of the low number of 'counted pages'. In spite of the numbers I'm sure that my vocabulary (single and compound words) in English is larger than my German vocabulary, but all those compund words push the number for German to an unreasonable level. Besides those old dictionaries don't have names for the new electronic devices, which I certainly know better in English than in German.

Edited by Iversen on 08 May 2012 at 11:14am

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Iversen
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 Message 2922 of 3959
07 May 2012 at 1:55am | IP Logged 
LAT: Censum etiam linguae Latinae coepit, sed debui accipere vocabularium Gyldendalis jucundem non esse mei proposito, quia etiamsi verba singularia in modo utile recensat, expressiones et sententias miscet, et ego in palude ista demersus sum. Censum ego forsitan rursum conabor, at verisimile alibus glossariis.

IR: Rinne mé ag comhaireamh an focal Gaeilge, ach bhí a fhios agam ró-beag - agus ansin a chruthaigh mé gluais de 60 focail ina ionad.

IC: Að lokum, ég las texta um Mývatn-svæðinu og lærði fyrsta kafla ítarlegurt. Það tók mig klukkustund...

This evening I began to count Latin words using the Latin-Danish dictionary from Gyldendal, but realized that while it treated the words well, it mixed expressions with examples, mostly in the form of long quotes (or constructed sentences), and I felt I drowned in that mess without getting reliable data. So I'll try again with other dictionaries later.

I proceeded to Irish, but because I know so few Irish words my notes became mostly 'red' (using my color coding), and I decided to go for a normal wordlist instead. Learning is better than controlling, and I don't learn new words efficiently when the unknown elements are so overwhelmingly in the majority - the repetition element is lacking, and there are simply too many things to learn to make any of them stand out.

And finally I read through an Icelandic text about the Mývatn area (i.e. "mosquito water area") and spent an hour on copying and studying just the first paragraph. I have probably neglected this language lately, so I had to work a bit to get back into the 'groove' - actually I didn't have particular problems of understanding the meaning, but I felt I had lost touch with the fine details of the Icelandic grammar.



Edited by Iversen on 08 May 2012 at 10:03am

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Iversen
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 Message 2923 of 3959
07 May 2012 at 4:08pm | IP Logged 
IT: Ho scoperto che la mia edizione di "Le Scienze - Astronomia" quasi è un'antiquità - risale a Ottobre 2011. Per me è uguale perché non l'ho mai letta prima, ma c'è un truffatore in Sicilia, che vende i suoi merce oltre la ultima data di vendita. L'ho visto quando se me a detto dove cercare i pianeti sul cielo notturno nelle mese di ottobre-novembre. Ma non importa - io non mi preoccupo di guardare quei piccoli punti luminosi quando ci sono riviste e siti web pieni di bellissime fotografie e grafiche. Questa rivista è la figlia di (GER): "Sterne und Weltraum", und viele Artikel drin sind von Leute mit deutschen Namen geschrieben, aber (IT) ci sono anche articoli con una prospettiva Italiana, quale l'articulo su Galileo e la sua produzione di "cannnochiali". In realtà egli era inizialmente più interessato delle prospettive militari (e delle opportunità di profitto), e solo a ora tarda ha avuto l'idea di tornare lo strumento in aria per guardare la luna e i pianeti. E conosciamo tutti il risultato: la nascita dell'astronomia moderna.

La revista "in Viaggio" è da Aprile 2012 - bravo! Ci sono molto belle fotografie, inclusi da luoghi che ho visto anch'io durante il mio ultimo viaggio laggiù. Ho anche letto i testi, ma a lungo termine ho nemmeno pensato che fosse un possibilmente un po' troppo con tutte queste descrizioni di alberghi e ristorante. Probabilmente pagano per le belle parole, et allora io ho pagato per una rivista con 3/4 pubblicità e 1/4 contenuto reale..


I have found out that my issue of "Le Scienze - Astronomia" dates from October 2011 so there is a trickster down at Sicily who sells goods long after their expiry date. Shame on him! However it isn't really a problem for me personally because I haven't read this particular issue before - not even in German (the magazine is an offspring of the German magazin "Sterne und Weltraum", but with some articles directed towards the Italian market, such as the one about Galilei's successful career as a telescope manufacturer. The instruments were primarily destined for military uses, but then Galilei somehow became curious about the sky and turned his gadget upwards, and the rest is history - "eppur si muove" (which he probably didn't say - at least not loud).

The other magazine, "in Viaggio" (themed issue about Sicily), is on the other hand from April 2012, where I also visited Sicily. It has pretty pictures and it was nice to read about known places, but for each spot on Sicliy or its neighbouring islands there were a number of hotel and restaurant 'portraits', and it somehow irritates me because I'm fairly sure that these are covert publicity - and then I have paid for spam. In contrast you can be fairly sure that the Crab Nebula didn't pay for its space in "Le Scienze".

Edited by Iversen on 08 May 2012 at 10:50am

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Iversen
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 Message 2924 of 3959
08 May 2012 at 1:43am | IP Logged 
NO: Eg ser akkurat nå "Uken som Gak"* på norsk - og ettersom det er dei avsluttende oppsamlingsprogram, tales mange slags norsk. Og utsendelsesledaren har just nå fått ett par Ivar Aasen-shorts av en deltakare.

* programma heter noe annet på norsk

BA I: Saya juga disalin dan mempelajari beberapa lembar teks, inklusif sedikit teks pada nebula dalam Bahasa Indonesia...

IC: .. og annað brot af textanum á Mývatnsveiten, sem eg nefndi í gær.

RU: Я загрузил несколько русских слов к список слов. Они были в свое время использованы об Иване Грозном: страх, казнь, растерзать/растерзывать, казна и самодержавие.

GR: Και στην Δημοτική διάβασα οδηγου γιά τόπου επικοινωνίας με εξωγήινους ... μικρά πράσινα πλάσματα με πλοκάμια από το εξωτερικό διάστημα. Αλλά οι Αμερικανοί περιμένετε βέβαια ότι όλους οι επισκέπτες εξωγήινοί μιλούν αγγλικά.


I spent the evening hurrying through a number of languages, including the following ones:
Indonesian: first I did a repetition round of some wordlists, and later I read a text about astronomy, with closer study of the section about nebulae.
Icelandic: One more section about the Mosquito Water area.
Russian: then I made a wordlist based on some of my text copies about Ivan the Terrible, so the words I found were items like execution, fear, the treasury, murder, autokracy and ripping things apart.
Greek: I found an old bilingual printout about how SETI expects us to communicate with aliens if the case should occur (which hopefully won't happen). But at the end we would probably expect them to speek English like everybody else. Else they will be met with banners and posters saying "Aliens go home" (in English).

And of course I also watched TV - including NRK1 from Norway where I watched the concluding program in the series "Uken der gak" (the week that goed) with clips from the preceding programs. While it lasted his program was the best possible test of your ability to understand different kinds of Norwegian, and sometimes I actually had to concentrate in order to understand anything! It was perhaps symptomatic that one participant gave the quizmaster a pair of Ivar Aasen shorts - Aasen invented the writing style called Nynorsk, which mainly reflects the West-Norwegian dialects and is shunned by most inhabitants of the capital Oslo.

Edited by Iversen on 08 May 2012 at 11:13am

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Iversen
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 Message 2925 of 3959
10 May 2012 at 12:08am | IP Logged 
NO (B): Jeg har som vanligt set TV, inkludert et program om det kongelige slottet Holyrood i Edinburgh. Vi fikk den velkjente historien om livet til Queen Mary, inklusive det blodige drapet på hennes sekretær Rizzio begått av hennes vanartete ektemann Darnley og hendelsesforløpet dette førte til - hendes søn med Darnley James ble Engelsk-skotsk kong, men han regerte fra London og besøkte aldrei mere Skotland. Senere hørte vi at Cromwells styrker gjorde stor skade på slottet, Charles II restaurerede det og fyllte et rum med portrætter a alle skotske konger (men besøkte aldri selv sine Stuart-forfedres hjemland). Derpå ble allt skotsk undertrykt etter slaget ved Culloden, inntil George IV som den første engelske konge igen besøkte stedet - demonstrativt kledd i en Highland tartan.

SCO: Ah hae as uisual leuke at the telly the e'en, includin a program aboot the ryal castle Holyrood ('holy rod' (i.e. cross)). We git the wellkent yairn o the life o Mairy Queen o Scots includin the bluidy murder at Mairies' Italian secretar Rizzio daein bye that hain o hers Darnley - a dire unsonsie event whilk hinderley led tae her untimely deith. Her son became king o' Scotland AN aw England as James V/I - but gaed tae London an ne'er returned tae the land o his Stuart kin. Holyrood wis snell skaithed by the sodgers o Cromwell, but Charlie II had it rebigged wit a room lippin-fou o' bad limns o aw Scots kings back tae Macbeth or whasomiver wis the first* ane on the list. Syne the pairtly Scots airmy o' Bonnie prince Charles lost at Culloden to the equally Scots (!) army of the brutal Duike o Cumberland an aw things Scots wer forbidden tae George IV returned tae Scotland as the first king ahint the donsie Mairy an her son ... an he came clad in a hieland tartan.

*'twas Fergus I, says Wikipedia

POR: Além disso, eu ouví alguns vídeos de TV Ciência. Mas a maioria deles não tratem realmente de temas ciêntificas, mas mais a burocracia e a política e atribuição de extranhos prémios. Por alguma razão eu não consigo ver TV Ciência online no meu novo computador - portanto eu posso ver os vídeos (por exemplo o video sobre a partícula de Higgs),mas apenas no Internet Explorer, não no Firefox.. Eu sinto falta do meu antigo computador XP, que funcionava perfeitamente até que quebrou.

ENG: I have also watched videos from Portuguese TV Ciência, but most of them are about bureaucracy, politics and weird prizes (the online program is even more dominated by these subjects), and on top of that I have problem watching these clips on Firefox on my Windows 7 machine - it went fine on my old one. However I can watch the clips in Internet Explorer, and it's good language training. I can't watch the online version of TV Ciencia at home yet, whereas TV3 from Catalunya works in both browsers. It takes time to find solutions to all these idiotic problems.

Actually I also watched Portuguese TV during the weekend where I visited my mother and her new digital box - there is one mediocre Brazilian channel on Astra plus a number of Spanish, French, Polish, Japanese, Chinese and Arabic channels in addition to all those in German.

IT: E in qualche modo ho anche trovato il tempo per ascoltare concerti di Vivaldi per strumenti a fiato e alcuni suoi concerti per strane combinazioni di strumenti, come per esempio il concerto per flauti, "salmò" (chalumeaux nel dialetto veneto), mandolini, tiorbe, violoncello, violini, archi e clavicembalo.


Edited by Iversen on 10 May 2012 at 2:03pm

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Iversen
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 Message 2926 of 3959
10 May 2012 at 1:01pm | IP Logged 
ũŋ eki·pö de d(e)ziɔjt eɔvæstigödɔ·rsj pɔrtugsösjz
um equipa de dezoito investigadores portugueses

vαj ö pörtdö finaw do novmbr de·stö anj ko·möpurα·r
vai a partir do final do novembre deste año comepurar (???)

æjm projæ·tuszj de ếŋvæstigösão sjiæntfikö nα antαRtida.
em projetos de investigação científica na Antartida.

Yes, I still do detailed studies of pronunciation in different languages using the method I have described earlier - i.e. writing everything down in a homemade phonetical writing system which is suggestive rather than scientific. This time I used the first couple of minutes of a program from TV Ciência about a Portuguese expedition to Antarktis. The quote above only covers the beginning of the section I used, but it takes forever to convert my handwritten notes to text on a computer - on top of the time it takes to listen attentively again and again to ultrashort snippets of speech. But I feel that it helps me to grasp the finer details of European Portuguese pronunciation so it is time well spent - especially when bearing in mind the availability of cheap flight tickets from Denmark to Portugal. The program is - as always - accompanied by a written text, but this text is not the same as the text used by the speaker on the screen which is slightly annoying - this means that you have to be fairly well acquainted with the language to be sure about what you have heard. And here there is at least one word which sounds like /ko·möpurα·r/ to me ... and I have never seen a word *comepurar in Portuguese. But she clearly says that 18 Portuguese scientists are going to Antarktis to participate in projects that last from November 2011 to April 2012 and cost 200.000 €, and that the noteworthy news is that they have brought their own transportation and logistics.

So much fun can you have from just 1 minute and 2 seconds of babble if you consume it slowly and attentively.


Edited by Iversen on 13 May 2012 at 1:14pm

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Iversen
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 Message 2927 of 3959
13 May 2012 at 4:15am | IP Logged 
I have not written here the last couple of days, but at least today I have been busy studying - and with extra gusto because my neighbour has been away the whole day. Alas, the vile nuisance returned and put some loud music on at three o'clock in the night...

GR: Πρώτα μετρήθηκαν τις ελληνικές λέξεις μου, χρησιμοποιώντας το λεξικό Ελληνικό -Δανίας της εικδόσεις Πατάκη. Οι αριθμοί είναι χαμηλότερες αυτή τη φορά, αλλά ευτυχώς περισσότερα από τρία χρόνια, τόσο σε απόλυτους αριθμούς και σε ποσοστά.

GREEK (Pataki) - 4 pages out of 424 (actually 438, but there are half-empty pages between letters).

127 known, 55 half-known 96 unknown words - resp. 46%, 20% and 35%
32 known, 29 half-known and 47 unknown 'expressions' - resp. 32%, 29% and 35%

The 127 known words corresponds to an estimate of 13462 known words, against 7900 with the same dictionary 3 years ago. Those wordlists do have an effect! Btw. I noticed a potential source of errors: when I have seen one word in a family and categorized it as unknown I had to fight a tendency to see further words in the family as partly known because they now had become 'guessable' - but knowledge gained during the actual test should not be taken into consideration so in each case I had also to categorize the remaining words as unknown. My active vocabulary is of course only a fraction of those 13462 or so words.

Further activities:

BA I: Saya membaca lagi tentang sejarah budaya konstelasi Orion, termasuk orang-orang Cina di bawah dinasti Xiu percaya bahwa melihat domba dalam langit. Saya juga menulis daftar kata.

IR: Tá mé priontáilte beathaisnéisí ó Abair, ach bhí siad ró dian. Ina áit sin, fuair mé "Cill Aodáin" agus staidéar arís ("Anois teacht an earraigh").

RU: Я прочитал всю рецепты десертов из Тенерифе, и я изучил два из них в деталях: миндальный десерт "Какэтобкысно" "(Bienmesable" на испанском языке), в котором было использовани много миндаля, и кыкырызный десерт "франгойо" ("frangollo"), который больше всего напоминал датский "пудинг" ("budding").

ESP: Mi kopiis ankaŭ iujn pasejojn de mia malnova kongreso-libreto por denove min meti en la kutimo de pensi en esperanto. Mi atendas tamen, ke mi bezonos paroli aliajn lingvojn antaŭ mi iros al Irlando per paroli esperanton.

TV watching:

SP: De hecho, he visto bastante televisión en español hoy en día. En primer lugar, hubo una emisión de Galacia con bellas imágenes de la naturaleza allí, por ejemplo, del Parque Nacional llamado Fragas de Eume y también de la costa Cantabrica. Y después ví "Destino España" sobre los extranjeros que se han establecído en la ciudad de Ronda (que yo estrañamente aún no he visitado).

IT: Anche Raiuno aveva almeno un solo buon programma televisivo sul menú: "Passagio al Nord-Oveste", dove eravamo all'inizio su una barca da pesca, che raccolse ossa di mammut invece di pesce, meduse e scarpe vecchie.


Edited by Iversen on 13 May 2012 at 4:39am

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Flarioca
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 Message 2928 of 3959
13 May 2012 at 5:05am | IP Logged 
Iversen wrote:
ũŋ eki·pö de d(e)ziɔjt eɔvæstigödɔ·rsj pɔrtugsösjz
um equipa de dezoito investigadores portugueses

vαj ö pörtdö finaw do novmbr de·stö anj ko·möpurα·r
vai a partir do final do novembre deste año comepurar (???)   


Portuguese people say equipa, we say equipe. In both cases, it is a feminine word, so uma equipa/e.

I would guess it is começar. ... vai a partir do final de novembro deste ano começar.

I would gladly help you in your phonetic studies of Portuguese, if you decided to use the IPA symbols :-))


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