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Iversen’s Multiconfused Log (see p.1!)

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Iversen
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 Message 2985 of 3959
30 July 2012 at 12:47am | IP Logged 
BA I: Saya mengunjungi ibu saya dan adik saya juga, tapi tetap saya menyegarkan Bahasa Indonesia saya dengan panduan yang tidak pernah habis ke Singapura dan kamus yang oleh Tuttle. Saya juga menulis daftar kata. Aku tidak meninggalkan (dan uang) cukup hanya pergi ke sana dan belajar sesuatu yang lebih. Lebih mudah dengan bahasa-bahasa Europa.

ESP: Sur la trajno hejmen, mi legis transskribon de la revuo de EUA, kiu venas al mi per retpoŝto.

I have visited my mother, and so did my sister, but in spite of the ensuing conversations I did manage to do some recuperative work on my Indonesian, which has been somewhat neglected due to my travels. I would like to go down there to get some immersion and learn some more, but time and money makes that problematic. It is easier to keep European languages alive. I used my trusty and seemingly inexhaustible guide to Singapura (in two parallel 'magazines' in Bahasa I and English) plus my Tuttle's dictionary. And in the train home I read a print of the latest magazine from the international Esperanto Union - I get it per e-mail, but have only read a few issues of it.

Edited by Iversen on 30 July 2012 at 12:48am

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Iversen
Super Polyglot
Moderator
Denmark
berejst.dk
Joined 4839 days ago

9078 posts - 16470 votes 
Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan
Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian
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 Message 2986 of 3959
07 August 2012 at 2:13pm | IP Logged 
With some trepidation I'll make my first addition after you-know-what to this thread - but I keep a copy of everything I write from now on! Unfortunately I can't also keep a copy of anything everybody else writes - but that's what we have got forum software for.

It is an accident that the last language above and the first language below is the same, namely Bahasa Indonesia - actually I lost one message in Afrikaans from the 31 of July (which I may be able to reconstruct because I have kept the tekst I wrote about (from an Afrikaans blog published in Belgium) - but now first something about Indonesian.

I have made a bilingual vesion of three texts from the Indonesian Wikipedia: one about the Tana Toraja district in Sulawesi, another about the tribe who lives there and the third about the language itself, Bahasa Indonesia. But each tribe has its own language, and so does the Tana Toraja tribe.

I have used Goggle translate not only to make the English version, but this time also to read a few sentences aloud. The voice is somewhat machinelike, but I'm not aware of any alternative synthethizer for this language. I did however notice that "Indonesia" is pronounced with stress on the second syllable and an almost silent 'e'. Besides I noticed a new feature: For some time you have had the possibility of putting one word into the 'from' box and get a 'to' box with a translation into English, and this translation was also the key to other possible translations. However now I entered "petani" (farmer) and got a whole host of related words and expressions with their own translations. That's obviously an improvement, but I'm slightly worried because several of the English words weren't correct - for instance "husbandman". My guess is that Google has imported a number of bad translations (maybe machine translations produced by itself) and now their errors turn up as new translation suggestions. I have also seen a fairly neutral word from a travel page being translated into the name of a wellknown commercial American travel homepage. I doubt that Google does this on purpose, but if a certain homepage turns up in an insane amount of parallel texts then the poor little thing may become confused. The same thing can happen with names of persons and places.

BA I: Saya telah mempelajari banyak hal selama yang tidak adanya HTLAL, dan akan mengambil banyak baris tekst untuk menggambarkan semua yang hal. Oleh karena itu saya hanya akan menulis tentang bahasa terakhir saya belajar kemarin (Bahasa Indonesia) dan sudah mencoba merekonstruksi pesan yang hilang dari hari terakhir pada bulan Juli. Dan pasti membuat salinan untuk saya!

Saya telah membuat teks dwibahasa dengan artikel Wikipedia tentang wilayah tana torja suku Sulawesi ditambah artikel tentang adat istiadat suku dan artikel tentang bahasa Indonesia itu sendiri. Saya mengunjungi Sulawesi dan Tana Toraja sekitar sepuluh tahun yang lalu,, dan saya berpartisipasi dalam salah satu upacara pemakaman berdarah, selama tiga ekor lembu dikorbankan. Juga melihat hal yang lebih damai, seperti rumah-rumah mereka sangat karakteristik. Semua suku memiliki bahasa mereka sendiri, dan Tana Torija suku juga memiliki bahasa privat, tetapi Bahasa Indonesia adalah bahasa yang umum.

Saya akan membaca itu semua, tapi saya hanya belajar awal dengan cara yang intensif. Mendengarkan tekst dwibahasa melalui Google translate. Kedengarannya mengerikan, seperti robot gila, tapi itu adalah synthethizer pidato satu hanya untuk bahasa ini. Dan saya perhatikan beberapa hal. Misalnya Indonesia diucapkan sebagai /indonsya/, dengan 'e' berkurang. .

Saya juga menemukan bahwa Google Translate sekarang juga menceritakan tentang terjemahan kata-kata yang terkait. Dalam teks adalah kata "petani". Saya memberi Google kata "petani" dan diterjemahkan ke "farmer", tetapi juga memberi saya salinan kata lain dan ekspresi:

noun
farmer:     petani, tani, penanam, penyewa, orang yg belum berpengalaman
peasant:     petani, tani, orang desa
agriculturist:     petani, ahli ilmu pengusahaan tanah, ahli ilmu tanah
tiller:     petani, pasak kemudi, peladang, celaga, tangkai kemudi perahu, pohon muda
cultivator:     petani, penanam, peladang, pengusaha tanaman, mesin pengolah tanah, mesin penyiang
husbandman:     petani
agriculturalist:     ahli ilmu pengusahaan tanah, ahli ilmu tanah, petani
cottager:     petani, penghuni rumah di luar kota
land worker     petani
hayseed:     benih rumput, orang kampungan, orang udik, petani, orang desa
hind:     kijang betina, rusa betina, kidang betina, buruh tani beristri, petani

Apakah "husbandman" adalah dari terjemahan mesin buruk? Atau "hayseed", "hind", "cottager"? Jika terjemahan mesin berdasarkan terjemahan yang buruk, kualitas terbenam. Sampah masuk, sampah keluar (atau apa pun yang mereka katakan - mereka mungkin memiliki ekspresi paralel).


Edited by Iversen on 07 August 2012 at 2:48pm

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Iversen
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9078 posts - 16470 votes 
Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan
Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian
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 Message 2987 of 3959
08 August 2012 at 11:10am | IP Logged 
AF: Net voor die onheilspellende hiatus het ek 'n blog gevind in Afrikaans, maar die op 'n .be webwerf is en 'n groot mate oor Nederlandse sake praat. Byvoorbeeld er is 'n lang teks met gedacht oor die veranderende houdings te multikulturalisme in Nederland (gebaseer op 'n verslag van die Hudson-instituut in Amerika).

Die ding self is goed, sê die blogger, maar as dit lei tot ghettos sonder konneksies of respek vir die omliggende samelewing die resultaat is nie multikulturalisme nie - 'tis multi keer geïsoleerde monokulturalisme.. Die mening van die blogger is goed in die volgende aanhaling geïllustreer ..en sien hoe dit deur Google vertaal is verdwaald:

Dis moeilik om presies te sê wat mense spesifiek bedoel met “multikulturalisme”, en of almal dieselfde bedoel. Die meeste bedoel waarskynlik dat ek vry is om my jembe met ‘n passie te speel, maar dat ek weet ek moet ophou na tienuur saans. Of dat ek vry is om ‘n kerrie van bokvleis en afval te maak op feesdae, maar dat ek weet ek moenie die bok in die straat voor my huis slag nie. Elke ou is vry om sy eie ding te doen, binne die reëls.

It's hard to say exactly what people specifically with "multiculturalism" and whether the same mean. The most likely mean that I am free to jembe me with a passion to play, but I know I should stop after ten o'clock at night. Or that I am free to make a curry of goat meat and offal to make on holidays, but I know I do the deer in the road before my house time. Every guy is free to make his own thing, within the rules.

"the same mean"?? Who or what is that mean? My "jembe" should probably be probably be "jamboree" ..and yes you should definitely stop after ten o'clock at night! Or even before, thanks. I can't tell whether a "kerrie" is a "curry", but with the large Indian population segment in South Africa it may be an authentic loanword into Afrikaans. The "bok" is a problem because several species of antelope are called something-bok. It couldn't be a "deer", because there aren't any deer in Africa outside zoos. But in Amsterdam or Delft you would probably be eating a goat instead. But whatever the species, how did it end up "in the road" - some oversight by the road construction team maybe? And unless your big grandpa clock has gone berserk your "house time" should be the same as that of your neighbours. As a matter of fact the Afrikaans text directly translated says: "Or that I am free to make a curry of goat meat and offals* on holidays, but that I know that I may-not the goat in the street in-front-of my house strike-down no".

At this point I must express my gratitude to Google not only for making bilingual texts possible, but also for entertaining me and keeping me alert to the true meaning of foreign texts.

* leftovers after you have butchered an animal (a loanword primarily used in North America)

AF: Die ironie is dat Afrikaans kan word uitgedaag in Suid-Afrika, selfs al die deur 5.983.443 Suid-Afrikaners as hul eerste taal gepraat word (census 2001) en as hulle tweede of derde taal deur ten minste dieselfde aantal persone. Terloops die blogger noem dat die Afrikaanssprekende op die gemiddelde is die rykste mense in Suid-Afrika. Maar die taal is wat verband hou met die vorige regime, en dit het om te kompeteer met Engels (en 'n tiental ander eg afrikaanse tale).

Die blogger noem, byvoorbeeld, 'n radiostasie die nu verbied liedjies op Afrikans gedurende die dag, so dat sien luisteraars slegs sal kry die gewone braaksel in Engels. Maar nie die blogger ni ek luister na Radio 2000 nie. En die Sanderton hospitaal het verbied het dokters en verpleegsters te maak aantekeninge oor pasiënte in Afrikaans omdat hul Engelssprekende kollegas kan dit nie verstaan nie. Dit herinner my van 'n hofsaak in die VSA, waar 'n eentalige Engelse werknemer en proses maak aan haar twee latino kollegas vir die praat van 'n taal wat sy nie kon verstaan nie. En sover ek weet het sy die saak gewen...

Speaking about cultural diversity: the irony is that Afrikaans may run into problems in spite of having around 6.000.000 native speakers (who on average are the richest people in their country) and at least the same number of L2 og L3 speakers. The problem is not as much that it is associated with the former regime and limited to Southern Africa, but more that its main competitor is ... English. The blogger mentions one radio station which simply has blocked Afrikaans songs in the daytime hours (whereas any kind of drivel in English can continue unabashed) and a hospital where notes in Afrikaans have been banned because monolingual Anglophone staff members can't read them - and yes, this is a sensible precaution because people's life depends on it. But the result is that Afrikaans loses ground.

Which reminds me about a court case somewhere in the USA, where a monolingual lady sued her two Latino collegues for speaking a language (Spanish) which she couldn't understand. As far as I remember she won the case. And yes, as usual there is a certain logic in this, but the result is not pleasant for her two collegues who now have to speak a foreign language whenever she is around so that she can eavesdrop on them.

But even though it isn't mentioned in the blog, it should in all honesty be said that the ten or so official languages of purely African stock never even had the chance to be used in those spheres where the Afrikaaners may face growing problems due to the pressure from English speakers.


Edited by Iversen on 08 August 2012 at 12:15pm

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tarvos
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 Message 2988 of 3959
08 August 2012 at 5:06pm | IP Logged 
A question, Iversen: did you study Afrikaans before or after Dutch and how much have you
relied on the knowledge of either to work your way through the other? I personally have
not studied Afrikaans, but as you know I am Dutch and therefore can read this log entry
without trouble anyway (it's like an obscure dialect to me).
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Iversen
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Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan
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 Message 2989 of 3959
08 August 2012 at 5:29pm | IP Logged 
For many years I could to some extent understand written Dutch through my knowledge of German, but I simply couldn't understand spoken Dutch. Some time after I had broken that barrier I thought that Afrikaans would be a logical next step, and I ordered a dictionary from a bookstore in South Africa and went ahead. And now I can to some extent even understand spoken Afrikaans - I listened to a podcast from Afrikans Sonder Grense earlier today - but without frequent exposure I can't claim to be fluent in Afrikaans yet.

So my Afrikaans it the third step of a three step rocket, and I'm sure that it is full of Dutch loanwords and constructions just as my Dutch is halfway modelled on German. In fact it would be strange if there weren't some kind of 'inheritance' at play when you learn series of related languages like that.

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tarvos
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 Message 2990 of 3959
08 August 2012 at 5:36pm | IP Logged 
Afrikaans was only established as a different language in the 1920s (before that it was
written just as Dutch was - and was considered to be a (dialectal) variant of the same
language), so you can barely even call them Dutch loanwords I suppose, but do you mean
you use "Afrikaanised" words borrowed from Dutch with or without checking against a
source whether that is correct or not? I suppose in many cases the guess is obvious,
taking into account Afrikaans spelling/phonetic rules that make it Afrikaans, not Dutch
(although I find deur = door a hilarious change because that's used in many Dutch
dialects as well).

But yeah, I doubt I would really ever learn Afrikaans (unless I had a pressing need to)
because it would feel like speaking an obscure dialect. And that would lead to me
either having to study it from scratch (boring) or just Afrikaansify my pronunciation
and vocabulary.
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Iversen
Super Polyglot
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Denmark
berejst.dk
Joined 4839 days ago

9078 posts - 16470 votes 
Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan
Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian
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 Message 2991 of 3959
08 August 2012 at 5:45pm | IP Logged 
If you know a word in Dutch and you don't know the corresponding word in Afrikaans, then the most efficient strategy is to assume that the latter ressembles the first one - you may be wrong, but it is worth taking the risk. It may be wrong to speak about loanwords in this case (given that the overwhelming majority of words in Afrikaans come from slightly oldfashioned Dutch), but I don't know a good word for "presumably the same word so I'll just use it and see what happens".

With time and exposure you can clean up your act and get closer to something authentic, and even now I believe that my attempt at writing in Afrikaans are more Afrikaans than Dutch (or German). This is not the same thing as saying I just 'Africanize' a little bit because I do actually study genuine texts intensively and I do read and listen to genuine texts and utterances, but apart from an old Teach Yourself I still don't have an Afrikaans grammar.

Edited by Iversen on 08 August 2012 at 5:50pm

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Iversen
Super Polyglot
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Denmark
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Joined 4839 days ago

9078 posts - 16470 votes 
Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan
Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian
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 Message 2992 of 3959
09 August 2012 at 2:16pm | IP Logged 
Just before ... happened I added a new message about simple words and simple grammar to my Guide to Learning Languages part IV, but that piece of eloquent prose disappeared with anything else written July 31. I also lost the changes I made to the section about wordlists in the same thread - changes which stressed that repetition of text-based wordlists can be effectuated simply simply by going back to the original text and see whether you now understand each and every word in it.

I restored both things as best I could yesterday (based on my memory about them), but today I wrote a message in the thread about misuse of prepositions, and afterwards it occurred to me that this was a natural continuation of the things I wrote yesterday. So now I have combined the two messages into one long rant, which few people will read because the five threads in that guide rarely is even near the top of the list of Active Threads. But I know it is there (I even took a backup copy just in case..), and that's the important thing for me. If I ever forget what I think about language learning I can refresh my memory there.



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