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Iversen’s Multiconfused Log (see p.1!)

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montmorency
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 Message 3385 of 3959
19 September 2013 at 1:34pm | IP Logged 
Interesting to read the Platt; I wonder what it sounds like. Quite easy to understand
or guess the meaning of most of it, from German and dimly remembered Dutch, and
English.


.....just noticed the link, and watched the beginning part of the video. I'll watch it
all later. I couldn't always tell if they were actually both speaking another dialect,
or just speaking Hochdeutsch with a different pronunciation. I guess it must have been
Platt though.

Wikipedia pointed me here:
Eckernföör or Eckernförde



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Iversen
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 Message 3386 of 3959
20 September 2013 at 9:58am | IP Logged 
Well, the Low German in this program differs from person to person, but I don't think any of the speakers could be characterized as hardcore peatdiggers. They all to some extent use words which are directly imported from High German, and so do I - for instance there is no chance of finding the equivalent of "Ansagerin" in my small 5.000 word Sass dictionary so I had to use the High German word. In some cases I am reminded of the 'diluted Scots' practice of speaking English with Scots pronunciation, but the difference is that you can't visit Scotland without hearing the sound of Scots - in Northern Germany it is more a question of not hearing the more Southerly dialects, but their High German is not particularly close to the sound of Platt.

As far as I know this recording of "Talk op Platt" is the only one which is found in its entirety on Youtube, but there are shorter clips from a later series where a couple of reporters (one Plattschnacker plus one Hochdeutschsprecherin) visited different places in the world to speak with local Platt/Plaut-speakers. Since this series stopped there has been silence apart from a few isolated Sunday morning programs in Platt on NDR or one of its subsidiaries. Last time I happened to catch one of those was maybe half a year ago (partly because my mother's beech tree has blocked her Astra parabole reception since spring).

The basic problem is that Platt has become a low-status pseudo-dialect, and I have not even the feeling that the average town-dweller of Northern Germany regrets loosing it. Let me quote from Ina Müller's "Platt is nich uncool", which I have put into my bag for use as in-the-bus-back-to-home reading:

Fröher weer mi dat Plattdüütschschnacken jo richtich pienlich! Wenn ik dor so an dink, as ik no School keem, dor kunn ik noch nichmol richtich Hoochdüütsch. Dat keem denn eerst so no en no! Wi worrn sogor noch opdeelt in de Klasse in de Hohen un de Platten. (...) Un in de Pubertät, dor worr Plattschnacken eerst so richtich uncool! ... Over sowat vun uncool! Nich genoog, da en vun Buuernhoff keem, nu müss dat ok noch jeedeen höörn!

Btw. a couple of evenings ago I tried to find some long clips in Schwiizertüütsch on Youtube, but didn't really succeed. This is more puzzling as most of the population in der Schweiz actually do speak German with a clear local ring - anybody who has been in the German-speaking part of Switzerland must have overheard conversations in dialect between members of the numerous indigenous tribes there. But they don't speak it to foreigners, they don't write it, they don't teach it and when you hear Swiss citizens on German TV they just retain a shimmer of a weak accent so that even the dullest TV potato in Germany can understand them. And that's a pity. I was lucky to hear a lot of Platt up to somewhere in the 90s, but Schwiizertüütsch eluded me.

PS: inspired by another thread I have now found some podcasts in Schwiizertüütch ("CH") on podclub.ch - but given how much that dialectbundle is used by the Swiss you would have expected a lot more.

Edited by Iversen on 21 September 2013 at 2:23pm

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montmorency
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 Message 3387 of 3959
20 September 2013 at 2:04pm | IP Logged 
As I think I've mentioned before, on a trip to East Friesland (?)10(?) or so years ago,
a young man said to me proudly "we speak Platt", but he was speaking Hochdeutsch (just
as well, as we probably wouldn't have understood real Platt). I wonder if (at least
some people) still like the idea of it, but don't put it into practice.


On the "cool" / "uncool" question, it reminds me of the situation in the UK, where (at
least in the south) among young people, local accents (let alone actual dialect) seem
to have largely given way to a homogenous (and not especially pleasant) so-called
"Estuary" English, even in places with (originally) very distinctive accents, such as
Cornwall. You have to find old people if you want to hear the real Cornish (accent),
and I suppose it will die out. :-(

I think it's a bit different in the north. Sometimes things like folk music (which
seems to go in and out of fashion, but I think is stronger still in the north) might
help to keep local accents alive. Some songs only "work" in the accent they were
"written" in.
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Iversen
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 Message 3388 of 3959
20 September 2013 at 3:50pm | IP Logged 
I have just listened to a Youtube video with short clips in an amazing array of Germanic languages and dialects. This was partly inspired by the thread about your feelings when you don't understand something you ought to understand, but the present discussion about Low German also played a role.

I would have liked some more dialects of English - calling it all 'Standard English' and exemplifying it with one of Charles' sons is not quite adequate - and a bit of Faroese, Scanian and Finnish Swedish would have added to the thrill of this rampage through the Germanic languages ... but at least the coastal areas from the Netherlands to Denmark were adequately covered.

I could only understand fragments of the passage with the old man who spoke "West Lauwers" Frisian, but to my surprise I could follow the three other Frisian dialects without too much ado - i.e. Friso-Saxon, "Seelterfrääisch" (Sater Frisian) and Nordfriesisch. And in those passages where the Afrikaans standup comedian spoke evenly I could also understand him (which is practical as I have booked a trip to ZA). The example with Bremer Low German was not exactly hardcore Platt. For instance I'm not quite sure what "allerdings" is in Platt, but the sound is wrong - these must be an autochthonous synonym in Platt for this. But the man's speech was representative of the kind of Platt you once upon a time could hear on Talk op Platt.

And then onwards to Danish, where I have heard more hardcore Synnejysk in real life, but the Southwestern example was spot on. And queen Margrethe as an example of standard Danish? Well, let's just say she speaks more clearly than most Danes today. Across the Øresund Swedish was only represented by a TV presenter allegedly speaking Standard Swedish, but it would have been nice to hear some Scanian - funnily enough the dialect closest to Denmark is also the hardest to understand for most Danes. The lone Norwegian sample (with two speakers) was denominated as both Bokmål and Standard Norwegian and Eastern Norwegian - and that's simply not good enough. "Bokmål" is a writing standard, not a dialect, and this standard is also used by Norwegians who speaks more like the other written standard Nynorsk (which I prefer). Besides the dialects around Oslo may be the most influental ones, but I doubt that the Norwegians would accept any variant as 'standard' Norwegian.

It is likely that the person who compiled the video has had too little access to Scandinavian sources and got tired along the way, but even as it is it is a good test of your Germanic comprehension skills.


Edited by Iversen on 20 September 2013 at 6:18pm

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tarvos
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 Message 3389 of 3959
20 September 2013 at 4:07pm | IP Logged 
Had problems with some of the dialects, Danish, and a bit of the Norwegian. Luckily the
West Flemish guy was subtitled, haha...oh and the Icelandic.

Edited by tarvos on 20 September 2013 at 4:08pm

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montmorency
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 Message 3390 of 3959
20 September 2013 at 5:31pm | IP Logged 
Why do you prefer Nynorsk, Iversen?
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montmorency
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 Message 3391 of 3959
20 September 2013 at 5:53pm | IP Logged 
The Germanic languages video: The Scots one was worryingly difficult, and I'd question
Will and Harry being representative of "standard English", as much as Iversen questions
Queen Margrethe's representation of standard Danish, although if she is the clearest
speaker in Denmark, then "abandon hope, all ye who enter here...".

(Except that William doesn't actually sound particularly "posh" to me....he just speaks
what I call "lazy RP", and I would not choose to listen to him for very long).

I enjoyed the West Flanders, not having knowingly heard it before, although was
confused by the reference to Waasland, which I thought was in East Flanders. Our twin
town is in East Flanders, and that was my first introduction to Flemish.

The Bremen low German seemed comprehensible to a speaker of Hochdeutsch, and apart from
that, HD, West Flemish, and north Frisian (of which I would have liked to hear more),
and some of her majesty's Danish, most was a closed book to me.
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Iversen
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 Message 3392 of 3959
20 September 2013 at 6:11pm | IP Logged 
Contrary to the majority of the Norwegians I prefer Nynorsk because it looks Norwegian - Bokmål just looks like misspelled Danish.


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