Register  Login  Active Topics  Maps  

Iversen’s Multiconfused Log (see p.1!)

  Tags: Multilingual
 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log Post Reply
3959 messages over 495 pages: << Previous 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 ... 129 ... 494 495 Next >>


Fasulye
Heptaglot
Winner TAC 2012
Moderator
Germany
fasulyespolyglotblog
Joined 5597 days ago

5460 posts - 6006 votes 
1 sounds
Speaks: German*, DutchC1, EnglishB2, French, Italian, Spanish, Esperanto
Studies: Latin, Danish, Norwegian, Turkish
Personal Language Map

 
 Message 1025 of 3959
28 June 2009 at 6:23pm | IP Logged 
Bao wrote:
Fasulye wrote:
Jar-ptisa, das ist genau wie mit meinem Wort "fietsbode", "Antikmarkt" gibt es auf Deutsch nicht! Man sagt "Trödelmarkt" oder "Flohmarkt". (= marché AUX puces)

Ich hab gegooglet* weil ich dachte "ich kenn das Wort nicht, klingt aber irgendwie österreicherisch". Ergebnis: Antikmarkt gibt's, es ist ein Themenflohmarkt auf dem vorwiegend Antiquitäten verkauft werden.

*Neudeutsch, herrlich.


Danke, Bao, dann habe ich das dazugelernt. Ich bin noch nie auf einem Antikmarkt gewesen, daher kommt meine Unkenntnis.

Fasulye

Edited by Fasulye on 28 June 2009 at 6:24pm

1 person has voted this message useful





Iversen
Super Polyglot
Moderator
Denmark
berejst.dk
Joined 6453 days ago

9078 posts - 16473 votes 
Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan
Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian
Personal Language Map

 
 Message 1026 of 3959
28 June 2009 at 7:53pm | IP Logged 
People have been blocked or muzzled for many reasons, sometimes obvious, sometimes not. But the only one who can do that is the administrator, so for the time being it is a waste of time of trying to sniff out those that have re-registrered under a new name. To take teh must discussed case, there isn't much doubt that turaisiawase is Siomotteikiru, but personally I am not that scared - she may be somewhat undiplomatic at times, but also provides a lot of useful input. But there isn't much doubt about what the administrator would do if he returned.

I would say the same thing as Patuco: just ignore the hunt for Sio - it isn't relevant, and you only make problems for yourself by entering discussions about those things. Besides I'm not really happy about my log being transformed into a battlefield.

Edited by Iversen on 28 June 2009 at 10:19pm

1 person has voted this message useful





Iversen
Super Polyglot
Moderator
Denmark
berejst.dk
Joined 6453 days ago

9078 posts - 16473 votes 
Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan
Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian
Personal Language Map

 
 Message 1027 of 3959
28 June 2009 at 10:31pm | IP Logged 
I have spent some time trying to get a feeling for Tagalog, using my bilingual Bible text (from Lexilogos), but it is far from easy. In order to really understand the Filippine text I transform King James' English version into a hyperliteral translation, which with such a distant language inevitably must contain a lot of grammatical markers. However I have found that my three (small) dictionaries and Translate.google are not nearly enough to decode the Tagalog text, not even when I in general terms understand it on the basis of the English text. I have moved from doing this on paper to doing it on my PC because I then can make experiments using Translate.Google, but even Google can't always make head and tails of this text, - as seen at the bottom, where I have added an authentic translation attempt. I have used 1person, 2person and 3person as generalized pronouns because they basically cover all cases, including the possessive..


sumigaw / nga kay Eliseo / ang isang babae / na isa sa / mga asawa / ng mga anak / ng mga propeta/, na nagsasabi: ...

now there cried a certain woman of the wiwes of the sons of the prophets unto Elisha, saying: ....

Activeverb-cried   "kay"   Nof ocus-Eliseo   Focus -one-woman & nbsp;Connection-one-of   Plural-wiwes-of &nbs p; Plural-sons-of Plural-prophets, Connection-Present-say:

Problem: what is "kay" ? - not found in the dictionaries

---------------

ang iyong lingkod / na aking asawa / ay / patay na,/

Thy servant my husband is dead,

Focus-2person -servant Connection-1person -Nofocus-husband Wordorder dead-"na",

Problem: what is the "na" after "patay" doing there?

---------------

at / iyong / talastas / na ang iyong lingkod / ay / natakol sa / panginoon

and thou knowest that thy servant did fear the lord,

and   Focus-2person understood Connection-Focus-2person-servant Wordorder fear-connection   lord

Problem: natakol < matakol ? (to 'fear' in the religious sense) - not found in the dictionaries
   
---------------

at / ang pinagkautangan / ay / naparito / upang kuning / alipinin niya / ang aking dalawang anak

and the creditor is come to take unto him my two sons to be bondmen

and / Focus-origine_obligation / Wordorder / to-Nofocus Passive-takeback* / enslawe 3person / Focus 1person two children

Problem: *take back or come back , not found in the dictionaries

Google's translation: and pinagkautangan is kuning naparito to enslave him my two children


Edited by Iversen on 28 June 2009 at 10:46pm

1 person has voted this message useful



mado
Newbie
Italy
Joined 5377 days ago

4 posts - 4 votes

 
 Message 1028 of 3959
29 June 2009 at 9:18am | IP Logged 
IT: La neurofisiologista Italiana Alice Mado Proverbio ha svolto studi sul concetto di lingua madre. I suoi soggetti erano Italiano interpreti simultanei di madre lingua Italiana "di notevole esperienza ed elevata professionalità", iempiegati all'Unione europea e speciallizzati nella lingua inglese. Eppure si è potuto vedere una ampiezza molto maggiore nella loro attività cerebrale quando se le presentava parole Italiane rispetto a quando se le presentava parole inglese. E le differenze erano ancora piè importanti con altre lingue come il tedesco, che non sapevano così bene: "un primo picco di attività ERP (denominato N170), osservabile sulla regione visiva sinistra del cervello in un intervallo di tempo tra 150 e 200 ms dalla presentazione delle parole, aveva un'ampiezza diversa a seconda che la parola letta appartenesse alla lingua madre o a lingue apprese successivamente". Se ho ben capito bene questo risultato, significa che le lettere - vale a dire la lingua scritta - mette il suo timbro sulle lingue imparati degli adulti. al contrio della lingua materna (o altre lingue imparate da bambini di meno di 5 anni).

"L'apprendimento della traduzione in inglese del termine coltello (knife), dopo la formazione delle conoscenze sul mondo, corrisponderà all’acquisizione di un’informazione di tipo puramente fonetico (cioè uditivo) e ortografico (cioè grafico), e non condividerà il substrato neurobiologico della memoria dell’individuo, se non in modo indiretto."

--- The Italian neurophysiologist Mado Proverbio has investigated the responses in the brain to Italian and English words, using an extremely accomplished group of EU-employed simultaneous interpreters as her guinea pigs. They were Italians and had English as their primary second language. She found that the brain activity was remarkably different when presented with Italian words, compared with the the situation when the words were English. The results suggested that the identifation of foreign language words primarily was based on the outer shape of the letters, to some extent also on the phonetic 'shape'. In contrast the Italian words triggered much more content related acitivity, which "Proverbio attributed [...] to the fact [that] the brain absorbs the mother tongue at a time when it is also storing early visual, acoustic, emotional and other nonlinguistic knowledge." Only foreign languages learnt before the 5. year displayed the same reactions as the maternal language.

So it does matter when you learn your first foreign language...


* EDIT: don't believe these numbers, - see the discussion below[/QUOTE]
1 person has voted this message useful



mado
Newbie
Italy
Joined 5377 days ago

4 posts - 4 votes

 
 Message 1029 of 3959
29 June 2009 at 9:25am | IP Logged 
La sottile ironia del "EU-employed simultaneous interpreters as her guinea pigs" non mi è del tutto chiara. Come si permette di mettere in dubbio la qualificazione di quelle persone, le ricordo che sulle riviste scientifiche non si raccontano fandonie. Lei piuttosto ha un Italiano pessimo.... neurofisiologista ..soggetti erano Italiano interpreti ...al contrio..mette il suo timbro...le raccomaderei un pò più di umiltà.
AM Proverbio
1 person has voted this message useful





Iversen
Super Polyglot
Moderator
Denmark
berejst.dk
Joined 6453 days ago

9078 posts - 16473 votes 
Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan
Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian
Personal Language Map

 
 Message 1030 of 3959
29 June 2009 at 9:47am | IP Logged 
IT: Non c'è nessuna ironia nel mio commentario (25/7), - al contrario il risultato è un poco tragico per noi che studiamo le lingue stranieri. E se ho sottolineato che è uno studio Italiano con soggeti Italiani, è proprio perché si compare la loro lingua madre ed il loro inglese - non vi è nessuna polemica in questo punto. Lo che mi interessa nel suo esperimento è precisamente il fatto che questo gruppo di persone sono probabilmente tra le più capabili nella sua lingua secondaria (l'inglese), ma anche questi esperti non possono nascondere che sono fondamentalmente Italiani.

Abbiamo avuto in questo foro molte discussione sul tema de lingua materna e lingue secondarie. Voremmo credere che non esiste un limite superiore al livello che si possa attingere. Ma il suo esperimento mostra chiaramente che ci resterà sempre una differenza, e che infatti il soglio è di 5 anni e non de 11-12 anni o più come si dice in altri testi.

Grazie per il commentario, anche se non mi posso dichiarare colpevole di qualsiasi denigrazione di interpreti o scienziati Italiani.


NB: Il passaggio "** EDIT: don't believe these numbers, - see the discussion below[/QUOTE]" non fa parte delle mie osservazioni sul esperimento di Mado Proverbio.)

Edited by Iversen on 30 June 2009 at 10:16pm

1 person has voted this message useful





Iversen
Super Polyglot
Moderator
Denmark
berejst.dk
Joined 6453 days ago

9078 posts - 16473 votes 
Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan
Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian
Personal Language Map

 
 Message 1031 of 3959
30 June 2009 at 8:58pm | IP Logged 
GER: Ich habe heute eine CD mit Instrumentalauszüge des Niebelungenrings von Richard Wagner gehört. Die hintergrund ist ein Bißchen atypisch: ich bin heute wegen Nabelbruchs operiert geworden, und statt mich ganz zu Betäuben zu lassen, sollte ich eine CD mit Betäubungsmusik selbst mitbringen, und ich würde dann nur eine örtliche Betäubung erhalten und konnte so nach einige friedliche Stunden wieder nach Hause zurückkehren. Die Musik Wagners ist für diesen Zweck ganz hervorragend geeignet: sie ist langatmig, wohlklingend (jedenfalls ohne die lästigen Sänger) and bedeutend Inhaltsreicher als die sogenannte Meditations- oder New Age Musik.

Aber es gibt dazu auch eine kulturelle und Literarische Perspektive: Wagner hat den sogenannten Niebelungen-Ring (einen Opernzyklus mit vier Opern: das Rheingold, Die Valküre, Siegfried und Götterdämmerung) auf teilweise auf einem mittelhochdeutsche Epos, der Niebelungenlied, basiert, aber dazu noch viele Themen der Altnordischen Sagen nacherzählt, die vielleicht selbst teilweise auf jetzt verlorengegangenen Gemeingermanischen Mythen der Völkerwanderungszeit zurückgehen.

Auch in Völuspá wird von einem unheilbringenden Ring erzählt, von Zwergen geschmiedet, aber gestohlen von Wotan (Ódin), der es notgedrungen weitergeben mußte as Teil des Lohnes für den Mauerbau des Walhallas, dann durch Brudermord in dem Hort des Drachens Fafners gelandet, von Siegfred genommen (nach dem Sieg über dem Drachen), bis es letztendlich in der Rhein seinen letzten Ruheplatz wieder findet (was den Göttern und besonders dem Wotan immens ärgert, aber der dreien Rheintöchter sichtlicht freut - jedenfalls jauchzeln sie lauthals darüber am ende der Götterdämmerung).

Die Götterdämmerung ist natürlich als ein Parallel des Nordischen Ragnaroks zu sehen, aber Fafner und Siegfried sind nicht im Völuspá wiederzutreffen, sondern in einem Heldengedicht über Sigurds Fafnirsbána (oder Wurm-in-Auge), und die Walküren sind zwar auch im Nordischen Mythologie bekannt, aber Brünhilde und Leute wie Gunther und der düstere Hagen sind eindeutig aus einem mitteleuropäischen Mythenkreis genommen, vermutlich mit wiederklänge der Historie der Burgunden- und Frankenreichen, und mit Nachklänge der unfreundlicher Besuch des Hunnenkönigs Attilla. "Brünhilde" ist in der tat der Name einer merowingischen Köningin, mit Siegeric verheiratet und im ewigen Streit mit einer gewissen Fredegunde (verheiratet mit Chilperic - oder bloß seiner Maitresse) eingefedelt, deren Mord sie letztendlich hergebracht hat - aber selber hat sie ihren eigenen Tod gebunden an den Schwanz einer galoppierenden Rosses gefunden. Wagner hat klügerweise dies nicht im Ring aufgenommen, aber läßt Brünhilde eine endlose viertelstunde darüber singen daß sie sich jetzt auf dem Feuerbestattung des toten Siegfreds werfen will, was tatsächlich auch geschieht zur Erleichterung von allen. Das arme Publikum kann somit endlich mehr Tod als lebendig nach hause kehren und sich einen hinter die Binde gießen um aus dem Wagnerischen Zauberkreis auszubrechen.    

Jetzt muß ich mich ein paar Tagen erholen, und niemand hat gesagt daß ich nicht an meinem PC sitzen darf, - vielleicht werde ich die Originalversion des Niebelungenliedes auf dem Internet irgendwo aufstöbern können und sehen ob ich sie ohne weiteres lesen kann (wenn nötig mit der Hilfe einer Ûbersetzung)
    
---------

I have had a minor operation for hernia today, and the hospital told me that they didn't intend to sedate me completely, so I had better bring along some suitable music to listen to while they stitched me together. I chose some instrumental excerpts from the Niebelungen ring of Richard Wagner, an immense opera tetralogy based partly on Norse Mythology (probably with a common Germanic background), partly on a Middle High German poem from around 1100 which retells the history of the Burgundy Kingdom which existed around the year 4-500 (not to be confused with the later Burgundy Duchy from the time around the 100 years war).

Among the ideas that stems from the Völuspá (which I have described in earlier posts here) is the idea of a cursed ring, and of course also Götterdämmerung (the Twilight of the Gods, aka Ragnarok) - though Wagner doesn't kill off the gods. There are also valkyries in the Old Nordic mythology (the mighty ladys that dragged dead warriors to Walhalla, where they all would live happily - at least until Ragnarok). On the other hand these themes are combined with the themes surrounding the Burgundy Kingdom and its neighbour, the Frankish Kingdom (which as ruled by the Merovingians), as told in the Nibelungenlied. In fact the name Brunhilde probably is taken from a Merovingian queen, who was married to a king called Siegerich and who spent her life fighting another queen called Fredegunde. She finally got her killed, but ended her own life tied to to tail of a galopping horse - it was a rough time (but in the opera she just sings an interminably long song about having decided to jump unto the pyre of her beloved, but dead Siegfried, and people let her do it just to get the opera ended in a nice way). The cursed ring is then thrown back into the Rhine (much to the dismay of Wotan), and the Rhine Daughters who swim around there is very happy about this - most women seem to like jewelery. Curtain, time to go home - more dead than alive after all this drama.

Wagner's Ring is commonly seen as an chore that every serious opera lover has to endure - but it is much more practicable just to make do just with the enjoyable instrumental excerpts including a number of transcriptions - all in all easily in excess of one hour of soothing, sonorous and sedating music.    


Edited by Iversen on 23 July 2009 at 6:39pm

1 person has voted this message useful





Fasulye
Heptaglot
Winner TAC 2012
Moderator
Germany
fasulyespolyglotblog
Joined 5597 days ago

5460 posts - 6006 votes 
1 sounds
Speaks: German*, DutchC1, EnglishB2, French, Italian, Spanish, Esperanto
Studies: Latin, Danish, Norwegian, Turkish
Personal Language Map

 
 Message 1032 of 3959
30 June 2009 at 9:04pm | IP Logged 
Iversen wrote:
GER: Ich habe heute eine CD mit Instrumentalauszüge des Niebelungenrings von Wganer gehört. Die hintergrund ist ein Bißchen atypisch: ich bin heute wegen Nabelbruchs operiert geworden, und statt mich ganz zu Betäuben zu lassen, sollte ich eine CD mit Betäubungsmusik selbst mitbringen, und ich würde dann nur eine örtliche Betäubung erhalten und konnte so nach einige friedliche Stunden wieder nach Hause zurückkehren. Die Musik Wagners ist für diesen Zwecke ganz hervorragende geeignet: sie ist langatmig, wohlklingend (jedenfalls ohne die lästigen Sänger) and bedeutend Inhaltsreicher als die sogenannte Meditations- oder New Age Musik.


Das ist ja super, wenn dir deine klassische Musik medizinisch hilft. Das habe ich auch schon im Fernsehen gehört, dass klassiche Musik medizinisch sehr beruhigend wirken soll. Die Wirkung tritt aber nur ein, wenn man diese Musik wirklich mag.

Ich wünsche dir gute Genesung!

Fasulye


1 person has voted this message useful



This discussion contains 3959 messages over 495 pages: << Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183 184 185 186 187 188 189 190 191 192 193 194 195 196 197 198 199 200 201 202 203 204 205 206 207 208 209 210 211 212 213 214 215 216 217 218 219 220 221 222 223 224 225 226 227 228 229 230 231 232 233 234 235 236 237 238 239 240 241 242 243 244 245 246 247 248 249 250 251 252 253 254 255 256 257 258 259 260 261 262 263 264 265 266 267 268 269 270 271 272 273 274 275 276 277 278 279 280 281 282 283 284 285 286 287 288 289 290 291 292 293 294 295 296 297 298 299 300 301 302 303 304 305 306 307 308 309 310 311 312 313 314 315 316 317 318 319 320 321 322 323 324 325 326 327 328 329 330 331 332 333 334 335 336 337 338 339 340 341 342 343 344 345 346 347 348 349 350 351 352 353 354 355 356 357 358 359 360 361 362 363 364 365 366 367 368 369 370 371 372 373 374 375 376 377 378 379 380 381 382 383 384 385 386 387 388 389 390 391 392 393 394 395 396 397 398 399 400 401 402 403 404 405 406 407 408 409 410 411 412 413 414 415 416 417 418 419 420 421 422 423 424 425 426 427 428 429 430 431 432 433 434 435 436 437 438 439 440 441 442 443 444 445 446 447 448 449 450 451 452 453 454 455 456 457 458 459 460 461 462 463 464 465 466 467 468 469 470 471 472 473 474 475 476 477 478 479 480 481 482 483 484 485 486 487 488 489 490 491 492 493 494 495  Next >>


Post ReplyPost New Topic Printable version Printable version

You cannot post new topics in this forum - You cannot reply to topics in this forum - You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum - You cannot create polls in this forum - You cannot vote in polls in this forum


This page was generated in 0.7344 seconds.


DHTML Menu By Milonic JavaScript
Copyright 2024 FX Micheloud - All rights reserved
No part of this website may be copied by any means without my written authorization.