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Iversen’s Multiconfused Log (see p.1!)

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densou
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Italy
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 Message 1361 of 3959
03 October 2009 at 1:19am | IP Logged 
Iversen wrote:
IT: Mi trovo ora di nuovo di fronte al mio computer, e ho bisogno di trovare qualcosa da scrivere. Bene, c'è per esempio la televisione. Ho accidentalmente scelto di vedere Raiuno, che apparentemente sta commemorando i quiz ed altri programmi di divertimento dagli ultimi 30-40 anni. Questo 'quodlibet' confuso è ben più difficile da seguire che le notizie perché i participanti gareggiano per essere più spassosi di tutti, e perciò giocano con la lingua (un uomo dice in questo momento qualcosa come "mrre pszu srdeutkle mio bambino .. balena balena ... pino l'ozio PIIINO l'ozio"). Non ho il minimo idea di ciò che voglia dire, ma il pubblico a cui è rivolto sono ovviamente gli Italiani e non io, e gli altri sono marginalmente più comprensibili per un povero straniero che si è smarrito nel mondo dei loro indigeni.


Well, I'd say 'hvordan har du det / hvordan går det ?' in Danish but I have no clue at this time (late hour) :P
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Iversen
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 Message 1362 of 3959
04 October 2009 at 8:07pm | IP Logged 
IT: Grazie a Densou per studiare con tanta fedeltà le scartoffi pathetiche di un povero straniero che si ha smarrito nel mondo degli indigeni Italiani. Infatti ho scritto anche "una povero straniero" nel mio testo del 30. settembre. Si può scrivere qualcosa, si può leggere e rileggere il suo testo parecchie volte senza vedere i suoi sfondoni più idiotichi. Perciò sono contento di avere un revisore di bozze che mi possa incitare a star attento alle minuziosità. La proposizione "ma il pubblico a cui è rivolto sono ovviamente gli Italiani e non io" è interesante. Avevo scritto "è" (singolare) perché "il pubblico" formalmente è una parola singolare, ma con una significato plurale. Non di meno è una sorpresa per me che il significato 'vince' in questo caso. Una domanda a Densou: sarebbe corretta la frase "ma il pubblico a cui è rivolto è ovviamente la popolazione Italiana" ? Ancore una osservazione interessante: io avevo scritto *"e non me" (sotto l'influenza di qualche altre lingue). É un fatto notevole che "e non io" domina in Italiano, e sono contento che Densou indichi questo fallo tipico.    

PS: 'hvordan har du det / hvordan går det ?' are both correct in Danish - at all times, day or night


Edited by Iversen on 04 October 2009 at 8:11pm

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Fasulye
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 Message 1363 of 3959
04 October 2009 at 8:16pm | IP Logged 
Iversen wrote:
PS: 'hvordan har du det / hvordan går det ?' are both correct in Danish - at all times, day or night


These expressions I learned in my Danish course some years ago and I still remember them.

Fasulye
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Fasulye
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 Message 1364 of 3959
04 October 2009 at 8:33pm | IP Logged 
Brasilian Portuguese

Yesterday evening late I had a Skype call with Amir, one of the You Tube polyglots. Amir is also a member of this forum. We wanted to test something out: He spoke one hour of Brasilian Portuguese to me while I spoke Spanish with him. (He speaks Spanish as a foreign language). I myself don't speak or write any Portuguese, but I could understand almost 100 % of what Amir said to me. It was a fluent conversation with these two different Romance Languages. I found it a very interesting experiment!

Fasulye
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Iversen
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 Message 1365 of 3959
04 October 2009 at 9:54pm | IP Logged 
FR: Cette fin de semaine j'ai visité ma mère. Comme j'ai déjà écrit j'ai acheté un petit ordinateur portable pour elle - un "Lenovo" (comme je hais ce nom!) - mais je n'avait pas vu que l'écran était rogné - seulement 1024 x 600 pixels au lieu de 1024 x 768. Avec tous ces ecrans oblongs sur le marché on na pas le moindre soupçon d'une telle idiotie, on s'attend au pire une image deformée. Cela m'a gâté le weekend. Peut-être qu'on peut voir tout champ normal avec un écrain extérieur, mais maintenant je ne sais même pas si cela est le cas. Et je vous dis, c'est pas agréable de se faire rouler comme ça ..

J'avais oublié de porter des dictionaires pour mon séjour, mais chez ma mère il y a une bonne petite collection, et j'ai trouvé un dictionaire Français-Danois de Gyldendal ... devinez son age: il date de 1933! Du moins il n'y a aucune référence des portables, PDAs ou autres gros mots. Quand j'ai fait des calculs de mon vocabulaire dans mes languages j'ai été un peu surpris de voir que mes résultats pour le français étaient sur le même niveau qui celui du portugais, que j'ai appris beaucoup plus tard et seulement par autodidaxie. Donc j'ai fais des listes de mots pour rectifier ceci, mais pas assez. Bon ben, ici j'ai eu une bonne occasion pour apprendre quelques mots français (bienque cela peut être un peu difficile quand ma mère et ma soeur attendent que je parle avec eux). Mais 200 mots dans un weekend, ce n'est pas rien.

J'avais pourtant trois livres dans mon sac: le Kauderwälsch du Finlandais, le Hongrois de Poche d'Assimil et un livre ancien dans tous les sens du mots: la Petite syntaxe de l'Ancien Français" par Lucien Foulet, 3ème édition revue, Paris 1930 (livre acquis lors de mes années d'études romanes pendant les années 70). Ce n'est pas un livre écrit pour les néophytes, ce qui est démontré par l'absence de traductions des examples, mais je me suis bien amusé à le lire. Par example il est très instructif de lire son analyse de étapes de l'évolution de l'article partitif, ou l'histoire de l'élimination succéssive du cas sujet (nominatif) en faveur du cas régime.   

SP: Evidentemente también he visto la televisión. Esta mañana hubo un quiz para niños en TVE Internacional. Se les pidió averiguar qué ciudad fue más grande en España según Tirso de Molino, con referencia a un cierto libro. La respuesta sorprendiente fue... Lisboa! En el hecho Portugal fue sul dominio español de 1580 hasta 1650 (veanse Wikipedia Español). Peró después se dio una palabra a cada equipo, el primero alumno debia entonces decir una palabra con la ultima letra como letra inicial, el secondo debia hacer la misma cosa con la palabra contribuida por el numero uno etcétera. Grande sorpresa: esto era demasiado dificil para los niños, - solamento podian 'sopraviver' diciendo palabras con la misma letra en ambos extremos: oro, oso...

GER: Gestern habe ich eine extrem interessante Sendung gesehen auf Phoenix (aber ursprünglich vom "History Channel" gamacht). Wir kennen wohl alle die drei großen Pyramiden von Khufu, Khafre und Menkaure (auf Griechisch Keops, Kephren und Mykerinos). Dazwischen gab es aber ein Farao Radjedjef (oder Djedefre), sohn von Khufu. Er wurde lange als Brudermörder verleumdet, offensichtlich weil seine Pyramide nicht nur weit von diejenige seines Vaters gabaut wurde, aber auch fast gänzlich abgebaut wurde. Neue Untersuchen haben aber erwiesen, daß dies sehr viel später geschah (bis ins 19. Jahrhundert), und es ist auch nicht merkwürdig daß seine Pyramide nicht gleich an diejenige von Khufu lag - damals gab es ja noch nicht die von Khrafre und Menkaure. Es wurde tatsächlich angedeutet, daß der Sfinx gar nicht das Gesicht von Khafre trägt (sonst immer mit Bart gezeigt), aber eher das von Khufu, und dann vielleicht gemacht während der Regierungszeit des 'Unbekannten Faraos'. Die Geschichte der vierten Dynastie muß offensichtlich umgeschrieben werden.

POR: Foi também muito interessante ouvir um pouco sobre a conversa bilingüe de Fasulye e Amir.

--------

First I lament over a treacherous little piece of electronics from Lenovo which I bought for my mother, - I had as a minimum expected that the screen could show 1024 x 768 pixels (a very low standard nowadays), but it could only do 1024 x 600 pixels, which is ludicrous. I bought it for my mother, and now we have to find out whether the whole normal area can be seen with an external screen. I see so many 'oblong' screens nowadays that I didn't expect anything anormal, but apparently you have to ask even the most senseless stupid questions to the people who sell junk electronics, otherwise you get screwed.

But I also had time for a bit of language learning. I didn't bring any dictionaries in my bag, but between those in my mother's house I found an old French-Danish one from 1933. She received it as an indefinite loan (call it gift) many years ago from a late school friend, so it is not going to be thrown out in spite of its age. I have used it for wordlists containing around 200 words, and that's not a superfluous activity - my grand word count from april-amy showed that at the time my passive vocabulary in French only was around 20.000 words. I have since done a few things to boost it, but I have a tendency to neglect it because I rarely have to search for words in French.

And more about French: in the train back home from Southern Jutland I read the first approx. 100 pages of Lucien Foulet's 'Old French Syntax', third edition from 1930. I bought it during my study years, but I doubt that it has been opened since then. It was clearly not intended for novices, as evidenced by the fact that very few of the quotes in it were translated into modern French, but I nevertheless found it both entertaining and enlightening. Maybe I'll use the rest of it as back-from-my-job bus-reading.

Besides I did watch some TV. At TVE Internacional I saw a quiz for school children. They managed to find out which town was said to be the largest in Spain in a book by Tirso de Molina. The surprising answer was... Lisboa! Actually Portugal fell under Spanish rule in 1580 where the Portuguese royal line died out. It was only freed in 1640, mainly as a result of the activities of the counts of Bragança, and since then it has of course been an independent country.

And yesterday I learnt about the forgotten Farao Djedefre, presumably a younger son of Khufu (Kheops in Greek). He has been vilified because the archeologists found it strange that the true heir died at a convient moment for Djedefre, that Djedefres own pyramid was built at a fair distance from that of his father, and - not least - that precisely the pyramid of this pharao has been almost totally dismantled. In the program (shown at German sender Phoenix, but originally made by the History Channel) it was demonstrated that he was not portrayed as a murderous outcast by his family, and there was nothing strange about the site of his pyramid (at Abu Rawash): nowadays we wonder why it wasn't put near the three great pyramids (Khufu, Khafre, Menkaure) - but actually the last two weren't there yet. And the site of Djedefre's pyramid was higher than that at Gizeh, which made it a logical choice. Finally it was demonstrated that the dismanteling took place from Roman times and right up to the 19. century, so it can hardly be construed as a an act of revenge by subsequent pharaos. So Djedefre may have been a nicer person than his later soiled reputation suggests.



Edited by Iversen on 04 October 2009 at 10:55pm

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Leopejo
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Italy
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 Message 1366 of 3959
04 October 2009 at 10:06pm | IP Logged 
Iversen wrote:
IT: Grazie a Densou per studiare con tanta fedeltà le scartoffi pathetiche di un povero straniero che si ha smarrito nel mondo degli indigeni Italiani. Infatti ho scritto anche "una povero straniero" nel mio testo del 30. settembre. Si può scrivere qualcosa, si può leggere e rileggere il suo testo parecchie volte senza vedere i suoi sfondoni più idiotichi. Perciò sono contento di avere un revisore di bozze che mi possa incitare a star attento alle minuziosità. La proposizione "ma il pubblico a cui è rivolto sono ovviamente gli Italiani e non io" è interesante. Avevo scritto "è" (singolare) perché "il pubblico" formalmente è una parola singolare, ma con una significato plurale. Non di meno è una sorpresa per me che il significato 'vince' in questo caso. Una domanda a Densou: sarebbe corretta la frase "ma il pubblico a cui è rivolto è ovviamente la popolazione Italiana" ? Ancore una osservazione interessante: io avevo scritto *"e non me" (sotto l'influenza di qualche altre lingue). É un fatto notevole che "e non io" domina in Italiano, e sono contento che Densou indichi questo fallo tipico.    

Lascio a Densou la correzione completa. Ma per quanto riguarda la tua frase, il problema è che in realtà non è SVO, ma OVS. In forma SVO si leggerebbe:
"ma gli Italiani (e non io) sono il pubblico a cui è rivolto (questo)".
Quindi "gli Italiani" è il soggetto e "sono", il verbo, si accorda con il soggetto.
Ugualmente va bene la tua frase, che cambiando ordine si scriverebbe "la popolazione Italiana è il pubblico (a) cui è rivolto...".

Edited by Leopejo on 04 October 2009 at 10:08pm

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Iversen
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 Message 1367 of 3959
04 October 2009 at 10:31pm | IP Logged 
OK, io ho creduto che fosse SVO..
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Crush
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 Message 1368 of 3959
04 October 2009 at 11:22pm | IP Logged 
Iversen: I believe I've seen you write "peró" several times instead of "pero". I don't know if there is a reason for this (or if it's a word that I'm just not familiar with). Also, I wonder if the word you were looking for when you wrote "sopraviver" isn't "sobrevivir"?


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