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Iversen’s Multiconfused Log (see p.1!)

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Iversen
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 Message 1617 of 3959
06 January 2010 at 11:45pm | IP Logged 
I have been spending some time correcting my guide to Language Learning. In each single message in each of the five parts all cases of bold typeface was corrupted ( a "trong>" code appeared instead of the inital code for bold. Furthermore, when I corrected the codes the javascript pollution occured at the end of the post, EXCEPT in those cases where the text stopped abruptly and maybe half a page was missing. Luckily I keep a complete copy in Word, otherwise several pages or more of complicated text would simply have disappeared without trace. I hope that this ominous problem will be corrected soon,- it is deeply worrying to know that old messages can be corrupted even if you don't touch them, and that you have to look for spurious javascripts with strange links whenever you make a correction.

Speaking of corrections: as usual thanks to SII for his very informative corrections. There are as usual some stupid errors and some bad constructions which I could have avoided, but also some things that I simply can't see myself when I proofread my own text. It isn't a matter of sitting down and learning a few specific things, but more of absorbing more and more of the Russian way of thinking, and that may take some time. But at least I do feel that my passive Russian is getting better, and then the active skills will sooner or later come limping after it ... I hope.

I don't have any complete operas of anybody in my collection, but orchestral suites or excerpts from The Invisible Town Kitezh, The Golden Coquerel, the Vojevod, Zar Saltan, Mlada, Snowflake and Christmas Night, plus three symphonies, Scheherazade, a pianoconcert and other instrumental pieces, all in all 441 minutes of music. Sorry for not writing this in Russian, but after seeing dozens of old messages being massacred I feel tired, and I don't want to make idiotic errors just because of tiredness.

Right now I'm watching a looong program in Spanish TV about markets, shops and simply about people in the streets of Madrid in this time, where all Spain is in "Tres Reyes" mood. But again, I'm tired and frustrated and don't really feel like thinking hard, not even in Spanish.

Auf Wiedersehen mañana



Edited by Iversen on 07 January 2010 at 10:01am

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SII
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 Message 1618 of 3959
07 January 2010 at 7:33am | IP Logged 
DaraghM wrote:
SII wrote:

Мой русский ещё нуждается в большой практике OR моему русскому ещё нужно много практики.


Thanks SII for the corrections.

Is нуждается always used with the prepositional case, and нужно with the dative ?


Нуждаться in all forms is used with the prepositional case: "нуждаться в ком/чём?"

"Нужен/нужна/нужно" relates to two nouns/pronouns (or an adjective/numeral acts as a noun): "нужен/нужна/нужно кому/чему?" (dative) and "нужен/нужна/нужно кто/что?" (nominative). But there are some difficult nuances. We can speak: "Моему русскому (языку) (ещё) нужна большая практика". "Русскому (языку)" is the dative (нужна кому/чему? - языку), "практика" is the nominative (нужна кто/что? - практика). But we can speak also "моему русскому ещё нужно много практики". I'm not a linguist, and I don't exactly speak about this (and like this) constructions, but it seems, "много" works as the "collective noun" in nominative, and a nounin genetive ("практики") specifies "много".
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SII
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 Message 1619 of 3959
07 January 2010 at 7:56am | IP Logged 
Iversen wrote:
I don't have any complete operas of anybody in my collection, but orchestral suites or excerpts from The Invisible Town Kitezh, The Golden Coqueral, the Vojevod, Zar Saltan, Mlada, Snowflake and Christmas Night, plus three symphonies, Scheherazade, a pianoconcert and other instrumental pieces, all in all 441 minutes of music.


I have many operas and classic music at all, but generally European composers. It seems strange, but in Moscow it is simpler to buy foreign classical composers than Russians (at least for :) Something I download from Internet, but Russian complete works (operas etc) are rarity.
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Iversen
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 Message 1620 of 3959
07 January 2010 at 10:53pm | IP Logged 
SP: I will have to correct some of my older long messages in a moment (and all summaries in this thread, which due to their length have been smashed to pieces by a marauding javascript in December), but first I would like to mention some of the things I have watched on TV tonight. In DR1 (Danish) there was something as weird as a program about some people in Surrey, England, who for some reason had decided to build a whole house of Lego, including floors, walls, roof, stairs, beds, doors and even the furniture. Well, they discovered that Lego isn't watertight, so they had to give the toilet a coaating of some sorts - but even that was built of Lego. Even the key to the house was biult of Lego. Weird... but a very colorful house, which in the opinion of an art critic might be worth 500.000 £ as an artwork, but in the eyes of a real estate agent only 5.000 £ as a house (and that was probably just to be kind to the builders).

SP: Más importante: el tiempo.. Y qué tiempo! Al parecer he salido de Londres a tiempo justo para evitar el hielo y la nieve en el Reino Unido. Y hay invierno blanco también en Francia. Y en muchas partes de España. Hay nevadas en las partes septentrional, central y oriental del país y en el resto, aparentemente, havia lluvia. He visto Avila rodeado no solo por sus muros, pero también por montones de nieve, he visto camiones varados desde Galicia a Cataluña y los niños que construyeron 'muñecos' de la nieve. Toda salida innecessaria está desconsejada en el Norte en este momente. Y como un ciudadano español dijo, la gente no estaban preparados para esto.

Mañana la nieve y la lluvia se desplazaran hacia el este, pero en la mitad este del país hará nieve o lluvia también mañana. Aqui en Dinamarca, también ha nevado y, en Jutlandia del Norte, ha habido un vero caos de nieve con un aeropuerto y carreteras cerradas, pero donde yó vivo no havian grandes molestías por el clima.

Y además España tomará mañana la carga de la Presidencia de la Unión Europea durante los próximos seis meses.

-------

I have watched some Spanish television, and the main theme was the weather. Apparently I was lucky to get out of the UK Sunday, and even though we have had snow chaos just 50 km North from where I live I have only had minor problems, but it seems that even Spain has been hit by true winter weather. I have seen the town Avila (in the central part of the country) encircled not only by its famous walls, but also by walls of snow, I have heard about stranded trucks all over the Northern strip of the country, the children make snowmen and all unnecessary driving has been condemned. And where it doesn't snow, it rains. A lady in Granada died when she saw her house being inundated by the floods.

And right now I see in ARD how the Russians in Suzdal celebrate their Christmas. In Russia the children apparently get their presents today, not in December. When I visited Suzdal in 2007 the town was also covered by snow, and I brought a lot of scenic photos home.


Edited by Iversen on 08 January 2010 at 1:02pm

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SII
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 Message 1621 of 3959
08 January 2010 at 4:08am | IP Logged 
Iversen wrote:
And right now I see in ARD how the Russians in Suzdal celebrate their Christmas. In Russia the children apparently get their presents today, not in December. When I visited Suzdal in 2007 the town was also covered by snow, and I brought a lot of scenic photos home.


Russian Ortodox Church use the Julian Calendar, so there is difference between civil and church dates (since 1900 it equal 13 days). The Christmas is celebrated 25 December but by Julian calendar -- i.e. 7 January by Gregorian. In addition, we have two new years: ordinary (1 January) and "old" (13 January -- i.e. 1 by Julian calendar) :)
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Iversen
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 Message 1622 of 3959
08 January 2010 at 12:47pm | IP Logged 
Когда я приезжал впервые в Россию (хотя в январе 1976 г. она еще была СССР), я увидел синого Санта-Клауса, и мне сказали, что он - Oтец Зима. Позже я узнал, что русский Санта-Клаус называется Дед Мороз. В Википедии русский список коллег Отец Зимний. В датском, коллег Отца является, как "Юлеманден и Юлениссен", но это только "Юлеманден" (Julemanden). пикси (Julenisser/nisser) имеют собственный бизнес.

When I visited Russia for the first time in January 1976 (it was still USSR back then), I saw a blue Santa and was told that it was 'Father Winter'. Later I have learnt that the real authentic name is Ded Moroz ('(grand)Father Frost'). At the Russian Wikipedia there is a list of the 'collegues' of Father Winter. In Danish this should be "Julemanden og julenisserne", but it is only Julemanden (Santa) - the Christmas Pixies (in plural) mind their own business.


Edited by Iversen on 08 January 2010 at 2:29pm

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Iversen
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 Message 1623 of 3959
09 January 2010 at 2:30am | IP Logged 
I have made some Russian wordlists based on printouts from the internet, - including a brief story of the area that now constitutes the country Belarus. However it has been under Lituanian, Polish and Russian kings at different points in its history - very complicated, and even more complicated in Russian.

But my main activity has been some comparative studies of the grammar of Irish nouns, based on not only my TY grammar, but also on an Irish TY textbook from the 70s and a printout of the relevant pages in Wikipedia. And I do understand more and more of the system - contrary to what was stated by one member in a thread about Tagalog verbs it is NOT a waste of time to try to understand the principles behind a complicated morphological system - but if your goal is to learn to speak the language you study, then you must also try to study genuine texts with these principles in mind. I have made some bilingual printouts for this purpose, but not used them yet (and it is clear the the Irish Wikipedia is not quite as comprehensive as some).

As I have written before it is practical to see some items in the substantive declension of Irish not as endings, but as processes. In the grammar the tables are not only relegated to an appendix, but also based on combinations with articles (there are luckily only definite articles in this language). And the problem is that the articles in Irish influence the beginning of the following substantives. Therefore the logical thing would be to give all forms first without, then with the relevant article - even though this would have cost one or two pages more.

If we take the 1. group, which mainly are masculines, then the thing to remember is that the combined nominative/accusative singular is equal to genitive plural, while genitive singular is equal to nominative/accusative plural (and then there are also vocatives and in some cases datives, but let's ignore them for now). The first two almost always end in 'broad' consonants, which are metamorphozed into 'slender' (=palatized) consonants in the two last cases. A slender consonant has e or i (or nothing) around it at both sides in the writing, while a broad one has a,o,u. BUT this system is broken when there is a plural suffix, because then this is used in all forms in the plural.

Now let's see what happens with articles and a noun that starts with a consonant. For masculine words the article is "an" in the singular and "na" in the plural (and with vocatives there is a particle "a"). For feminine words the "an" is only used with the nominative/accusative singular, otherwise "na" in used. And this has the consequence that the sound changes with an article in the nominative/accusative plural spread to the genitive singular. OK, your still with me? Now "an" in the genitive singular with a masculine words has the effect of 'weakening' the following consonant, which is shown with a 'h' (i.e. b /b/ ---> bh /v/, etc.), while same thing happens in the nominative/accusative with a feminine noun - the opnly place where it has the article "an". In the plural genitive (both for masculine and the few feminine words of the 1. declension) "na" has the effect of provoking an eclipsis, which transforms b into mb, c into gc etc. in the writing (but it is really a spurious second consonant, that just has been allowed the linger on) - but ONLY in the genitive.

If the word begins with a vowel (or in some cases s) there are some different changes i the beginning of the words, though the basic pattern is the same at the other end. In nominative/accusative a 't' turns up in the nom/akk. singular and a 'h' in plural.

So for the 1. declension the main patterns for a masculine noun without a specific suffix at the end are:

'boat'
(M singular) N/A: bád, Gen: báid, (plural) N/A: báid, Gen: bád    
(with article:) N/A: an bád, Gen: an bháid, (plural): N/A: na báid, Gen: na mbád

'groan' (NB. my guess, - no examples)
(M singular) N/A: éachnach, GEN éachnaich; (plural) N/A: éachnaich, Gen: éachnach
(with article:) N/A: an t-éachnach, Gen: an éachnaich (?), (plural) N/A: na héachnaich, Gen: n-eachnach

With one of the special end-suffixes a typical pattern could be:

'car'
(M singular) N/A: carr, GEN: cairr, (plural) N/A: cairr, GEN: carr
(with article:): N/A: an carr, GEN an chairr, (plural) N/A: na carranna, Gen: na gcaranna

With a feminine noun the lenition will of course hit the nominative/accusative instead of the genitive singular - and in the example word from TY the final consonant is also slender in N/A singular:

'song'
(M singular) N/A: amhráin, Gen: amhrain, (plural) N/A: amhráin, Gen: amhrán
(with article:) N/A: an t-amhrán, Gen: na hamhrán:, (plural: N/A: na h-amhráin, Gen: n-amhrán

And after this there are 4 other declensions to be learned. It's hilarious!

These examples are (hopefully) written according to the school standard, but let's end the show with some words before and after the orhography reform in 1948:

aimhdheoin --> ainneoin ('spite' as in "in spite of")
comhgar --> cóngar (proximity, shortcut)
Gaedhilge --> Gaeilge (the Irish gaelic language)


Edited by Iversen on 09 January 2010 at 2:42am

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SII
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 Message 1624 of 3959
09 January 2010 at 5:33am | IP Logged 
Iversen wrote:
Когда я приезжал впервые в Россию (хотя в январе 1976 г. она еще была СССР), я увидел синого Санта-Клауса, и мне сказали, что он - Oтец Зима.


Когда я впервые приехал в Россию (хотя в январе 1976 г. она ещё была частью СССР), я увидел синего Санта Клауса, и мне сказали, что он -- Отец Зима.

1. Correct is to say "впервые приехал в Россию" or "впервые был в России", not "впервые приезжал". The difference between these cases is that "приезжал" is formed from "приезжать", the imperfective aspect verb (these verbs ask to question "что делать?"), and "приехал" is formed from "приехать", the perfective aspect verb ("что сделать?"). So you visit to Russia was fully completed, you must use the perfective aspect.

2. Russia isn't equal to USSR, Russia was a part of USSR. So it is logically incorrect to say "она еще была СССР". In addition, this sounds not good, and it is better to say "она ещё была частью СССР", "она ещё входила в СССР" etc.

3. Russians don't use the term "Отец Зима". Probably, it was used for the purpose of to explain for foreigners some Russian traditions. In addition, it is better to say "и мне сказали, что это Oтец Зима", not "и мне сказали, что он - Oтец Зима", although your variant is fully correct.

Quote:
Позже я узнал, что русский Санта-Клаус называется Дед Мороз.


It is absolutely correct unless "-" is Санта Клаус :)

Quote:
В Википедии русский список коллег Отец Зимний.


And it isn't correct. In first, "В Википедии" and "русский список" aren't linked each other, although the sence is absolutely understandable. In addition, "русский" rather relates to "Википедия", not "список" (the list can be translated to any language, but you found it in Russian Wikipedia). So you must say something like "В русской Википедии приведён/дан список коллег Деда Мороза" (because, as I said above, "Отец Зима" isn't used in Russian). And "Отец Зимний" is... hmmm... bad sounds? "Отец Зимний" can be translated as "the father of winter". If this is correct, it is good to say "Отец Зимы", because "зимний отец" means "the father who "works" only at winter, so there are fathers for summer, autumn and spring.

Quote:
В датском, коллег Отца является, как "Юлеманден и Юлениссен", но это только "Юлеманден" (Julemanden).


There are some mistakes in this sentence. I don't exact understand who is Юлениссен (Is/are he/she/they pixies? Is this word in singular or plural?). About Юлеманден I would say: "В Дании коллегой Деда Мороза является Юлеманден". I use "в Дании" because Юлеманден is part of Danish culture and traditions, not part of Danish language: we can say about him in Russian, English etc, but he don't stop to be the "citizen" of Denmark.

Quote:
пикси (Julenisser/nisser) имеют собственный бизнес.


1. Pixie can be translated as "фея", but really in Russian there isn't any more or less exact analog to many of Western mythological creatures, and now we (Russians) often use the adopted to Russian grammar and phonetics Western words. So you is right when you say "пикси".

2. The word "бизнес" in Russian is used _only_ in commercal meaning. "Заниматься бизнесом" is "to make money by means of the ownership of some enterprise". About the hired worker we can't say "заниматься бизнесом" (although sometimes we can speak like this about the hired top-level manager).

In total, about "пикси" we can say something like "У пикси есть своя работа" or "Пикси занимаются своим делом".


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